Results 21 to 40 of 53
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07-19-2012, 09:18 AM #21
The BSA (to my knowledge) has not released their specific reasons for denying homosexuals, be that religious, inappropriate sexual actions, or moral viewpoint; however, I remember the amount of sexual contact that happened during “band camp” and “choir tour” between the teenage boys and girls. I am surprised that a school hasn’t been sued because someone’s daughter got pregnant during a school trip and the school didn’t do enough to protect the students. I wonder if the BSA is more worried about lawsuits and personal liability than a specific moral stance.
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07-19-2012 09:18 AM # ADS
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07-19-2012, 10:45 AM #22
Seems doubtful that it related to anything other than the group's bigotry. In all honesty, there seems to be a minimal chance of liability issues with homosexual students as long as it isn't directed from leaders. What happens between consenting minors is hard to prosecute. And what type of "protection" are we talking about that isn't mostly morally based (versus legally based)? Teenagers have sex and will always figure out a way to do so. From what historical studies show, somewhere around a third of "hetersexuals" explore sexual boundaries in their teens in hetereo-normative environments already.
I decided years ago that if/when I have a kid I will not let them join the BSA or GSA. Neither of the organizations has managed to account for the complexities of a child's life or even seems to fully care. The BSA is an antiquated concept of masculinity and citizenship. Its a rigid program that exploits ideas from a different era. Its rear-looking instead of forward thinking. Makes sense to me that they stick to such bigoted ideas in policy.
As to the uncertainty of their basis for the decision:
http://web.archive.org/web/201002061...-cases-225.asp
[QUOTE]"Boy Scouts of America believes that homosexual conduct is inconsistent with the obligations in the Scout Oath and Scout Law to be morally straight and clean in thought, word, and deed. The conduct of youth members must be in compliance with the Scout Oath and Law, and membership in Boy Scouts of America is contingent upon the willingness to accept Scouting
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07-19-2012, 01:22 PM #23
Thanks for posting the link, very informative. I enjoyed my time with the BSA and had a good experience. I am sure I could have had a similar experience by spending the same amount of time outdoors with family, sports, or school activities. I think it is good for individuals, young and old, to be involved in something that are passionate about.
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07-19-2012, 03:25 PM #24
For me it's simple, the scouts are a very moral organization their Scout Oath and Scout Law are to be morally straight and clean in thought, word, and deed (as mentioned above). If you believe homosexuality to be immoral, which I would think most religious people do, then why would you then want your son or daughter to participate in an organization that is catering to a perceived immoral behavior?
Why let 4 or 5% of society dictate everything? I think part of the issue is the in your face gayness. I'll never understand why gay men can't just walk around and act normally? Why must they flaunt their sexual preference? My friend who I've known for 15 years is openly gay and MUST tell everyone how wonderful it is. It may be stereotyping, but I'd say he's the norm. Totally over the top, in your face gay. Seems everywhere you go there has to be some aspect of gay in everything, TV, movies, news, etc. You'd think everyone was gay from the media but it's only 4-5% or so I've read.
I really don't have an issue with it, hell whatever floats your boat. I could care less who's boning who. But I don't like being constantly told how awesome it is or having it thrown in my face at every turn which seems to be what's happening here.beefcake. BEEFCAKE!
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07-19-2012, 03:28 PM #25
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07-19-2012, 03:55 PM #26
Hehe, man could I introduce you to some over the top straight dudes who do nothing but rub it in your face how many women they bone. Going around in their over the top traditionally masculine clothing and acting like they own the world. Not to mention how tired I am of seeing so many straight couples on TV.
Tired of having some other person's hetereosexuality thrown in my face.....
Oh, wait.......
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07-19-2012, 04:31 PM #27
I get what you're saying but the difference is the percentages of society that are like that. You and I should be seeing heterosexuality everywhere since that's the norm and 95% of the population. But instead we see gay everywhere but it's only a small percentage of society so why does it dominate everything? Why is 4% of society dictating standards for anything?
beefcake. BEEFCAKE!
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07-19-2012, 05:56 PM #28
We let them! Most Americans have become apathetic about everything. The Gay community has been repressed for too long and now they are making an effort to get noticed, get their issues on the books, get involved in politics, etc..
Ihad a buddy go to some community clean up day and complained that it was a bunch of gays folks, made him uncomfortable. Waah Waah Waah... Most folks had their church duties, their kid soccer games, etc... Too busy to participate in a good community project. At least the gay community cared enough to show up and do something good for all of us. If you get involved you will probably notice them less, as you realize they are just like us.
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07-19-2012, 06:51 PM #29
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07-19-2012, 07:21 PM #30
OK Sonja, and you too, Felicia...I thought what I said was pretty cut and dry and understandable but I'll elaborate...
It doesn't matter what Mr. PhD says, "Homosexuals and Pedophiles are two different species altogether". Consider that in the minds of a LOT of people, straight, heterosexual sex is "normal" and anything otherwise is not. Pedophilia, bestiality, heavy S&M, rubber suits...name your fetish. Homosexuality gets lumped into the mix. When some hear stories about a predator like Sandusky, or Jeffery Dahmer, or that freak last week that yanked that little 6 year old girl out of her bedroom, raped and killed her, anything not "normal" is to be feared. Even among those that have close friends who are gay, if they don't know the person and trust them completely, they will cast a weary eye.
I'm not a religious nut, I'm not religious at all. My youngest sister is as queer as a three dollar bill, and so is my cousin Bobby. They always have been...ever since they were 5 years old, everyone knew the deal. They're born that way. Nobody in my family busted their chops about it. It's all groovy. I have two gay clients that live together, Chris and Leonard. They are two of the most wonderful people I know...If I had any children I'd have no problem at all with them being alone with those guys. I KNOW them, I trust them.
However, I wouldn't allow my kids to join the scouts if they allowed openly gay scout masters. I wouldn't take the chance. Now that's just me, and go ahead, call me an idiot, moron, jerk, ignorant fool, whatever. The reality is there are millions of people who think this way. I think it quite the coincidence that this comes hot on the heels of the Sandusky debacle. I think the scouts organization is sending a message here..."We're looking out for your kids".
Go ahead and freak out, gnash your teeth, pull your hair, beat your chests, click you heels together three times and wish real hard that it would just go away, but it won't. I'm not trying to come down hard on you ladies, you know I don't mince words...it's just that homosexuality and pedophilia aren't too far separated in the minds of many. I'm not going to throw my trust in Mr. PhD. For all I know he may be a pedophile.
Funny, here I think like an overprotective parent, yet I have no children.
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07-19-2012, 07:27 PM #31If you believe homosexuality to be immoral, which I would think most religious people do, then why would you then want your son or daughter to participate in an organization that is catering to a perceived immoral behavior?
As pointed out above, the LDS church for example, does let homosexuals hold church positions as long as they don't act on their sex urges. The same is expected to all hetrosexual people as well. As long as they aren't married (and the main point of marriage is to have a family), all hetorsexuals are also expected to have no sexual relations.
Anyway, if I had a teenage daughter, I'd be a little worried about having her go camping with other hetrosexual men. It doesn't mean that anything would happen, but I'd still worry a bit. Same with a homosexual going camping with teenagers of the same sex.
As far as the boys go, it's mostly a non-issue unless people make one of it. When I started scouts, I don't even think I knew what a sexual orientation was. All scouts are supposed to remain without any type of sexual contact what-so-ever (or bad movies, internet, etc.), regardless of sexual orientation.
Hehe, man could I introduce you to some over the top straight dudes who do nothing but rub it in your face how many women they bone.
Tired of having some other person's hetereosexuality thrown in my face.....Utah is a very special and unique place. There is no where else like it on earth. Please take care of it and keep the remaining wild areas in pristine condition. The world will be a better place if you do.
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07-19-2012, 08:44 PM #32
Because for centuries that have been marginalized as immoral, unnatural, etc. Society has intricate mechanisms (you have used a few) to normalize one type of behavior that is considered the desired outcome. The concept of normal isn't static though and changes over time. Unfortunately, even when people begin to accept a wider array of behaviors many of the old social pressures remain (most of us aren't even aware of how we play into them).
More succinct answer....we are in an era of change. Its slow and requires immense public attention and pressure. And I would say its not 4% of the population as more than half of the American population supports equality for homosexuals. Until policy and process reflects that equality it will likely remain a very public issue. At least I hope it does as I would rather see us change than repress the issue again because of a religious minority.
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07-19-2012, 09:21 PM #33
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07-19-2012, 09:31 PM #34
Perhaps, Christian, the "religious people" you hang out with think homosexuality is immoral, but the "religious people" I hang out with think it is a beautiful thing. Perhaps, you should say the "conservative religious people". Perhaps you carefully exclude anyone who accepts homosexuality as a normal expression of the human condition as being "religious". Certainly, many parts of the organized religious community have gone to great efforts to drive away homosexuals and persons who consider homosexuality within the realms of normal.
But what do I know, I live in Utah. I am informed by certain authorities that there are no homosexuals in Utah.
The Boy Scouts used to be a BIG TENT. For many, many years. I had a wonderful time in Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts and Explorers. But at this point, I am ineligible. I am unwilling to profess a belief in Yahweh, thus, Tommy is excluded.
For me, not so much a problem. For my Dad, Eagle Scout, founder of at least 2 troops and lifelong scout leader, the religious extremism of the BSA National is a great sorrow in his later years.
My experience with my many canyoneering scout leader friends is that they are there to serve the boys of their communities. Being called to be a scout leader in Utah means many things, spending a bunch of your own money, and giving of time you might rather spend just with your own kids and their friends. But the obligation is to also include any kid who wants to join. And make it good for them. This is part of "The Work" - the work of making the world a better place. My experience of the scout leaders I know is that they don't give a flying fart about the National BSA loyalty oaths to Yahweh and the radical heterosexual agenda.
For this, and the work you do, Scout Leaders - I SALUTE YOU.
BSA - training the bigots of tomorrow, one boy at a time.
Tom
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07-19-2012, 09:38 PM #35
I need your permission?
Actually I don't need to. You clearly stated that it is an error to equate pedophiles with gays, but that millions of Americans do so; and then that you are one of them. Hmmmm.
If millions of people believe it, no matter how foolish, then you'll believe it too?
I don't get it. Makes no sense. (but that is our usual impasse).
Tom
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07-20-2012, 10:09 AM #36
Saw this on Facebook...
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07-20-2012, 10:57 AM #37
I never said that most religious people think it's immoral just that I would THINK that most religious people think it is. I haven't really had a lot of in depth discussions with my religious friends about it. Maybe I'm wrong, what do I know? I'm under the impression that most religious people think being gay is immoral and like I said I would think that's the majority?
I do know that I was a scout leader for 5 years and it like you said for sure it's alot of your own money and time. I used all my vacation time every year to do scouting things instead of family things. Paid dearly for that.
I certainly don't exclude gay people from my life, played softball last night (like I do every thursday) with a guy I went to graduate college with who's gay (flamboyantly so...). Now he's a bit over the top but he is the first to make a gay joke, great guy. I told him about this discussion and he can't believe the gays are making such a big deal about it. He thinks they are pressing an issue to make it mainstream that isn't necessary. He compared it to female football players. They may be perfectly capable of playing football but it's just not the time or the place. Pick your battles.beefcake. BEEFCAKE!
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07-20-2012, 10:59 AM #38
The BSA I earned my eagle in didn't seem like a bunch of homophobes. Times change, but I'm not giving up my hard earned award because of their narrowmindedness. I hope no one lumps me in with them because of it!
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07-20-2012, 12:40 PM #39
Why don't they just start their own country?
Why don't they just find their own planet?
Why do they have to be gay at all - some of us straight people just don't like it!
A more serious answer: they did. It is called the Boy Scouts of America, and like most things in America, it was started and run for many, many, many years by regular people, some of whom were gay, who kindly made things easier for their homophobe 'friends' by staying in the closet. Same things for us Atheists - many, many, many atheists contributed to the Scouting Movement; but now we are not allowed because we don't pass the loyalty test.
Another serious answer: because the BSA marketshare is so big, their tentacles into the community, even with non-homophobes and non-atheistphobes, that creating a new organization from scratch that includes all boys would be challenging. Certainly creating an organization JUST for homosexual and atheist lads would be counter-productive, in addition to being challenging.
Another serious answer: because inclusiveness is, or should be, part of being morally straight. To me, it is more important than ones orientation (rather than "sexual proclivities", since scout participants are too young to be having sex, and scout leaders are not in a (morally acceptable) position to have sex with participants, hetero or homo); or one's loyalty to a set of specific religious tenets.
Tom
And some BSA Councils have decided to be inclusive:
http://www.startribune.com/local/162817346.html?refer=y
Originally Posted by kelly smith
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07-20-2012, 02:36 PM #40
Hmmm. But is the BSA truly "private" when they receive many benefits from the Federal gov't?
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,164547,00.html
http://secular.org/news/government-f...s-unacceptable
http://www.thehumanist.org/humanist/articles/bsa.html
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