Bogley

[CarpeyBiggs]

I see your point donny h, and I think I understand what you are trying to say. Let me see if I can shed a little different light on it.

People are unnecessarily fed up for many wrong reasons. They PERCEIVE that there is more crime and more danger than there really is... We live in a culture of fear, mainly influenced by the media and our closed door world where we interact with people in person at a much smaller frequency than ever before. Which in turn, gives the media even more influence on our perceptions, whether consciously or subconsciously...

The criminals aren't winning. The good guys are. In fact, I believe that serious crime across the board is generally decreasing. Unfortunately, there are a few areas where this is not true, such as teenaged mass-murderers. But overall, the bad guys are slowing down. The justice system is working. Due process is a good thing. Is the system perfect? No. But it works, in my opinion.

I'll try to look up some stats for you, but I remember reading quite a few reports that shows that overall crime is decreasing in America, and has been for a few years. It was part of my studies when I thought I wanted to become a journalist... But as we all know, you can't trust a journalist.

:lol8:

[deathcricket]

CarpeyBiggs wrote:
People are unnecessarily fed up for many wrong reasons. They PERCEIVE that there is more crime and more danger than there really is... We live in a culture of fear, mainly influenced by the media and our closed door world where we interact with people in person at a much smaller frequency than ever before. Which in turn, gives the media even more influence on our perceptions, whether consciously or subconsciously...

I would agree with you that people live in fear, yes. I myself lived in fear in San Diego, not so much now that I'm in a small town like St George though. I would like to volunteer another example.

My next door neighbor (we share a wall/duplex style) was raped in the middle of the night. Yes it was another house, but it happened literally 50 feet from where me and my wife were sleeping. I wish to god I had heard a scream or something and been able to help her. I didnt own a gun at the time, but my other neighbor had several and we would have "took care of business" if we even knew what was going on. He also beat the living shit out of her, and put her in the hospital for 2 weeks. To this day I dont understand how I didnt hear anything and wake up.

So next week when I was working all night on a network upgrade, I'm living in fear that some druggie is going to come into my house when I'm not there.

It's more anger though than anything else. If more states allowed and supported the actions of Jeremy Horn, there would be a lot less crime.

/redneck on
Screw sending them to jail (with 3 meals a day, cable, gym, etc), kill them. yes killing someone for robbing a house is extreme. But it sets a precedence(sp?) let people protect their property with deadly force. We will not tolerate evil people in our society. It's pretty simple, if you don't want to get shot, don't come in my or my neighbors house with bad intentions.
/redneck off

If you want to live in your own bubble and think that stuff like this won't happen to you, that's fine man. I hope and pray that nothing bad does happen, I truly wish that. I'll agree that with modern technology we do get media hyping up every little bad thing that happens, and it is much less than we might expect. BUT bad stuff does happen, there are evil people in the world. And they get way to much mercy from us in my opinion.

My next door neighbors assailant got 5 years in club med... I mean jail. He's been out of jail for 2 years actually. She will carry those scars, (physical and emotional) for the rest of her life. The next time he breaks into a house (and you and I know he will) I hope they own a gun, or they have a neighbor like Jeremy Horn :)

So yeah his actions were a little extreme, but they were criminals, who cares. To be honest I feel worse for a deer that gets hit crossig the road (accidently) than I do for a human who has free will and chooses to harm or be a negative influence on our population. To me, human life is what you make of it. Otherwise you are less than an animal, IMO. *shrug*

[deathcricket]

donny h wrote: EVERYTHING YOU SAID, but for sake of space...

I just wanted to quote you :) very good way of explaining it man. I totally agree with everything you said.

Really good post!

[CarpeyBiggs]

deathcricket wrote: It's more anger though than anything else. If more states allowed and supported the actions of Jeremy Horn, there would be a lot less crime.
I personally don't buy this. I think it would go a long way towards creating a state of complete chaos, a state of vigilante justice, with potential for a frightening cycle of hate and retaliation. Are there studies that substantiate your claim? I hear it often, but it just seems impossible in my mind.

deathcricket wrote: If you want to live in your own bubble and think that stuff like this won't happen to you, that's fine man. I hope and pray that nothing bad does happen, I truly wish that. I'll agree that with modern technology we do get media hyping up every little bad thing that happens, and it is much less than we might expect. BUT bad stuff does happen, there are evil people in the world. And they get way to much mercy from us in my opinion.
Just because I believe that actual danger to myself and others is smaller than what the media portrays does not put me "in a bubble." It is simply the truth. If anything, the bubble of fear is burst... The odds of dying from violent crime, or being impacted by violent crime are relatively small. Odds of dying or being impacted by natural causes are much more substantial. I hope I am never a victim of violent crime, it would certainly be difficult to understand. But I don't live in fear of it, either.

And along those lines, if something "bad" were to happen to me, I hope I would feel confident in the justice system taking care of it. Surely, the system isn't perfect, and I can understand those who are frustrated by it's seeming injustices. But for the most part, it works. Hypothetically speaking, killing someone for raping my girlfriend is not going to make her whole again, and it certainly won't make me feel better about the situation.

And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that we should be content with crime, or that we should all just pretend nothing bad ever happens. I'm just suggesting that there is a better way for us as to act as humans when crime does happen. There is a better way for us to "fight" crime. Let's not fight evil with more evil. Let's fight evil with good.

deathcricket wrote: So yeah his actions were a little extreme, but they were criminals, who cares.
Wow. I truly find this troubling. On one hand, I can understand that you desire for them to receive a just punishment. But casual disregard for human life? I think there is a better way.

deathcricket wrote: To be honest I feel worse for a deer that gets hit crossig the road (accidently) than I do for a human who has free will and chooses to harm or be a negative influence on our population. To me, human life is what you make of it. Otherwise you are less than an animal,
Let me offer this thought. When a criminal "chooses" to be a negative influence, do you believe it is because they have an adequate understanding of their impact on others, and they are honestly "choosing" that path? My feeling is they don't. It could be a result of education, a result of impairment, a result of simply not being able to understand (i.e. disability), a result of our culture's negative reinforcement of such acts, a result of needing certain results now, while sacrificing future opportunities, etc... But if they truly did understand, I think the person would reform their behavior.

Human life truly is what we make of it. So why would we reduce it to less than trivial by giving more respect to an animal who is killed by a car? How does that help the human condition? And I ask that sincerely. I'm interested to understand why you feel that way.

I personally believe that we as humans should always treat others with the utmost respect (even though I don't always do it myself, but it's a goal. So please don't call me a hypocrite). I believe that justice is served as much by the reformation of someone's character, as it is by them being punished by serving time in jail. I don't believe in eye for an eye, or especially "life for a TV." I believe in giving people the chance be educated, reform their behavior, and contribute in society.

I also believe if someone does me wrong, it is not my duty to make them pay for it with their own blood. I hope I'd have compassion on that person, and do my best to insure that the justice system will do what is required to help them reform and become a better person. And yes, that would include a just penalty, as determined by the law.

[James_B_Wads2000]

deathcricket wrote:
/redneck on
Screw sending them to jail (with 3 meals a day, cable, gym, etc), kill them. yes killing someone for robbing a house is extreme. But it sets a precedence(sp?) let people protect their property with deadly force. We will not tolerate evil people in our society. It's pretty simple, if you don't want to get shot, don't come in my or my neighbors house with bad intentions.
/redneck off


WOW!! There are some real gems in this post. I wish I had the time to reply, maybe later.

I will say this... It's Joe Horn not Jeremy.

Also you should try reading books instead of burning them.

James

[deathcricket]

Oh nice! Some actual debate instead of flames *points to james*. You asked some interesting questions and I will try and answer as honestly as I can. I do appreciate your “tone” though. I understand I don’t have the most popular view on things. And am ok with that.

CarpeyBiggs wrote: And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that we should be content with crime, or that we should all just pretend nothing bad ever happens. I'm just suggesting that there is a better way for us as to act as humans when crime does happen. There is a better way for us to "fight" crime. Let's not fight evil with more evil. Let's fight evil with good.

I can agree with you to a certain extent. The only thing I would say is I don’t really feel it’s fighting evil with evil. Being tolerant of evil is in itself evil IMO. I don’t think a soldier is evil if he kills someone in a war for instance. But I can see your point as lets not fight violence with more violence I guess.

CarpeyBiggs wrote: Wow. I truly find this troubling. On one hand, I can understand that you desire for them to receive a just punishment. But casual disregard for human life? I think there is a better way.

Don’t get me wrong, the first thing anyone should or I would do is call 911 in any given situation. But if a criminal is found committing a crime and is anything less than immediately cooperative, they will/should die. If they lay down on the ground and surrender and they get shot, that is wrong. Why have a gun if you’re not ready to use it? I'm not going to sit there and let someone be hurt next door. I hope I would have the courage to confront the evil being done in my presense and do something about it.

CarpeyBiggs wrote: Let me offer this thought. When a criminal "chooses" to be a negative influence, do you believe it is because they have an adequate understanding of their impact on others, and they are honestly "choosing" that path?

Every person on the planet knows the difference between right and wrong. They choose to do evil for various reasons. They covet property (stealing), they need money to get high, they see other people as lessers/ prey items (rape), they feel they got a rough break in life so “screw everyone else”. Whatever the reason, I don’t believe it’s ignorance, its more of them putting their needs/ desires above other people. They want something and don’t care who they hurt to get it.


CarpeyBiggs wrote: My feeling is they don't. It could be a result of education, a result of impairment, a result of simply not being able to understand (i.e. disability), a result of our culture's negative reinforcement of such acts, a result of needing certain results now, while sacrificing future opportunities, etc... But if they truly did understand, I think the person would reform their behavior.

I respectfully and completely disagree with you on this. I feel greed is the main motivator. I think they don’t care who they hurt and are only sorry when they receive punishment because it affects them. Because they are the most important thing. If they had even a smidgen of care for anyone but themselves, they wouldn’t do such things.



CarpeyBiggs wrote: Human life truly is what we make of it. So why would we reduce it to less than trivial by giving more respect to an animal who is killed by a car? How does that help the human condition? And I ask that sincerely. I'm interested to understand why you feel that way.

Simple answer, intent and choice. The deer in my example is just running across the street, it doesn’t understand about cars. The driver doesn’t want to hit the deer, this would be an accident on both parts. Neither made a choice to harm the other and both lose. The person has an expensive repair bill and the deer loses it’s life.

A criminal chooses to commit a crime. He understands he is harming someone, either physically (rape example) or property wise (robber). His intent is to cause harm. He has free will of his actions, a conscience and chooses to ignore them. Or his greed outweighs both, and his “needs” (I use the term loosely) drive his motives. The fact that he is a sentient being makes this even worse. A shark cannot be blamed for attacking a human, since it’s going on instincts lets say.

So yeah I feel worse for the deer, based on choice and intent.Life is what you make of it based on the tools you are given. If you use those tools to do evil things, you are less than an animal, and humans who are a danger to society need to be removed or put down.

CarpeyBiggs wrote: I personally believe that we as humans should always treat others with the utmost respect (even though I don't always do it myself, but it's a goal. So please don't call me a hypocrite).

No I struggle with this a lot as well. I’m all for respecting others. But respect for self is also very important to me. And if someone is disrespectful to me, my family, or property I will react accordingly. I dont feel its an issue of respect, but more an issue of them putting their needs above my self/family. His needs/whims are not more important than my well being. Again what is the persons intent? If a person causes you harm and didn’t meant to, then forgiveness is in order, even if they don’t ask for it. But if they are intending to cause hard and have made a choice to do so, then all bets are off, so to speak.

CarpeyBiggs wrote: I believe that justice is served as much by the reformation of someone's character, as it is by them being punished by serving time in jail. I don't believe in eye for an eye, or especially "life for a TV." I believe in giving people the chance be educated, reform their behavior, and contribute in society.

Again I respectfully disagree completely. A person may become refined because they are punished and FEAR of getting caught keeps them from committing a crime again. But character is something that is really hard for a person to change, and only if they have a deep desire to do so. I’m for educating before the fact (drugs are bad MMMkay?), but again I stated that every person knows right from wrong and once you commit a crime, the time for education is over. Now it’s time for the consequences for your actions. You are responsible for your actions, not your lack of education.

I’m also not a big fan of jail either for the record. If I had my choice I would give convicted criminals a one way flight to any destination of their choosing instead of jail time. Basically it would be BANISHMENT. They could go anywhere they like, just not stay here. Of course we would have to tighten our immigration protocols, to ensure they weren’t able to get back in the country. Maybe a retna scan? Anyone criminals found back in our country would face harsh punishments. But feeding them 3 meals a day, caged like a rat, getting free cable, and nothing to do but work out all day is not the answer. Especially since they are still being a burden on society wasting my tax dollars.

CarpeyBiggs wrote: I also believe if someone does me wrong, it is not my duty to make them pay for it with their own blood. I hope I'd have compassion on that person, and do my best to insure that the justice system will do what is required to help them reform and become a better person. And yes, that would include a just penalty, as determined by the law.

Since I believe they have made a conscious choice to do society wrong and commit the crime, compassion is not in my heart for them. I simply want justice done, and society to function properly. A bullet is sometimes needed to remind criminals that we're are not all easy prey for them.

[James_B_Wads2000]

deathcricket wrote: And if someone is disrespectful to me, my family, or property I will react accordingly

Does this mean you are going to punch me in the face if we ever meet?


deathcricket wrote: Oh nice! Some actual debate instead of flames *points to james*.

I give as good as I get. My hat goes off to Dan for taking the time to write out his argument point by point. I just get so pissed that people that think like you really exist, that I have a hard time remaining civil, my bad I know.

I used to work with a guy who made the same arguments as you and I debated with him until the cows came home and I accomplished nothing. The same would happen here. You know why? Because your argument is self-centered, and until you are willing to step out of your little cave in your mind and try to perceive the world through a different point of view, your arguments are infallible and therefore undebatable.

But Dan is basically saying the same thing I would, so I’ll just sit here quietly and work on my anger issues.


James

[Jaxx]

James_B_Wads2000 wrote: I just get so pissed that people that think like you really exist, that I have a hard time remaining civil, my bad I know.

I used to work with a guy who made the same arguments as you and I debated with him until the cows came home and I accomplished nothing. The same would happen here. You know why? Because your argument is self-centered, and until you are willing to step out of your little cave in your mind and try to perceive the world through a different point of view, your arguments are infallible and therefore undebatable.

But Dan is basically saying the same thing I would, so I’ll just sit here quietly and work on my anger issues.


James

ALL HAIL!!! The all knowing James. The great mind of our time who can solve all of our problems if we just would do what he says. Please all knowing king of ours, show us the way of our untruthful, uneducated, backwards ways. Please give us your knowledge so we can better our lives and pass it on to others.
*Don't pay attention to the man behind the curtain*

James, that post really makes you look like an ass. It's ok, I quoted it so it can live on forever :2thumbs:[/u][/i]

[James_B_Wads2000]

Jaxx wrote:
ALL HAIL!!! The all knowing James. :hail2thechief: :hail2thechief: :hail2thechief: :hail2thechief: :hail2thechief:

It’s about time I’m given the respect I deserve! Now go demonstrate you loyalty by playing hopscotch on the interstate.

Jaxx wrote:
James, that post really makes you look like an ass. It's ok, I quoted it so it can live on forever :2thumbs:[/u][/i]

I was being honest and had not intention of deleting it. But thanks for saving it anyways… :ne_nau:


James

[CarpeyBiggs]

Jaxx wrote: ALL HAIL!!! The all knowing James. The great mind of our time who can solve all of our problems if we just would do what he says. Please all knowing king of ours, show us the way of our untruthful, uneducated, backwards ways. Please give us your knowledge so we can better our lives and pass it on to others.
*Don't pay attention to the man behind the curtain*

James, that post really makes you look like an ass. It's ok, I quoted it so it can live on forever

Jaxx, I used to like your posts. Now I don't. I wish I could virtually kill you for not thinking like me. :lol8: (note the sarcasm...)

But seriously, what do you think on the matter? Would you kill someone for stealing your neighbors stuff? Are you comfortable with allowing others to do it? Do you think Joe should get off with no punishment? Was the punishment Joe meted out just?

And from a broader perspective, do you believe that there is any line of thinking that can solve all of our world problems? Or at least better the human condition?

I know I am obviously in the majority on this board, but I guess I really do believe that issues can be solved, and love and education are the key. Violence is not, and never will be.

[deathcricket]

James_B_Wads2000 wrote: deathcricket wrote: And if someone is disrespectful to me, my family, or property I will react accordingly

Does this mean you are going to punch me in the face if we ever meet?

Lol, way to take one sentence out and twist it. I usually dont feed trolls. But your statement is actually relevant to the discussion in its own sick way. I stated very clearly in the next sentence that if someone causes you harm but didnt intend to, forgiveness (not retaliation) is in order. But go ahead and think what you want.

But curiousity rules my brain so I will ask a question.

Let's say I did meet you. And was pissed for that gay fat guy under the waterfall pic you posted. The first thing I do when I meet you IS to punch you in the face. Again this is hypothetical... dont freak out and take one sentence to miss the meaning of my discussion. Lets say I keep punching you in the face.

Are you going to try and explain to me that "it's wrong to hit people" and "you're really hurting me man" and "you need to understand this is wrong"? Or are you going to defend yourself and punch me back? Are you going to try and run away? Or just curl into a small ball on the floor?

This is truly the part I dont understand. In my opinion, if someone is doing evil/wrong things. You defend yourself as the situation calls for. There is no reasoning, there is no discussion, there is only consequences for your actions. If I came up and punched you in the face, I would be shocked if you sat there and said "that hurts me man". The natural response (and correct IMO) is too fight back with force and defend yourself. Otherwise you're just a victim letting yourself be disrespected. Once I "cross the line" and intend to cause you harm, the time for negotiations has passed.

Correct me if I'm wrong, maybe i missed his point, but Carpey (and I guess you, although you've said nothing really) seem to think using equal parts or greater violence in situations like this is wrong.

I also find it humorous that you get so pissed off when people dont believe the same and have the same views. I got news for ya, the world is a diverse place man. Try for a little love.

[CarpeyBiggs]

Unlike James, I apparently do believe that when we have these discussions, I can change people's minds. Perhaps I am just that naive.. :haha: But even if you don't want to believe a word I say, there is still value in the exercise. It's always good to analyze why you believe something, and see if you can advance your own thinking (myself included.) And hopefully, everyone realizes there is room for growth. It is the infallible thinkers who scare me, quite frankly.

deathcricket wrote:
Every person on the planet knows the difference between right and wrong. They choose to do evil for various reasons. They covet property (stealing), they need money to get high, they see other people as lessers/ prey items (rape), they feel they got a rough break in life so “screw everyone else”. Whatever the reason, I don’t believe it’s ignorance, its more of them putting their needs/ desires above other people. They want something and don’t care who they hurt to get it. I moved this quote to the top of the post, so I can address it first. So it is out of context.

Every person does know right and wrong, but I am pretty sure you will agree with me that it is not black and white (not race), but thousands of shades of gray. For instance, I believe that what Joe Horn did was evil. You believe it was heroic. Yet both of us know what is right and wrong. We both agree that the kids who were shot for stealing were in the wrong. After that, our understandings of right and wrong are completely different.

This differing level of understanding is exactly my point. People do have foundations from which they can understand more. Criminals also understand right and wrong, but their interpretations could vary as widely as yours and mine.

An analogy: Understanding simple arithmetic allows you to do basic math. Understanding basic math will allow you to understand more complex functions of math in the future. Likewise, with all other "truths," just because someone understands "math," doesn't qualify them to understand calculus. And a criminal who understands "right and wrong" on elementary levels, should be given the chance to understand the more complex functions, and reform their behavior.

Not sure that makes sense, but the point is that right and wrong is not always black and white. And everyone's sense of right and wrong is not as finely tuned.

deathcricket wrote: I understand I don’t have the most popular view on things. And am ok with that. On this board? I'm pretty sure you stand with the majority...

deathcricket wrote: Being tolerant of evil is in itself evil IMO. I don’t think a soldier is evil if he kills someone in a war for instance. But I can see your point as lets not fight violence with more violence I guess. But if a soldier EVER killed someone unnecessarily, even in the name of war, it is horrendously evil. A soldier's job (some will disagree) is NOT to take life and perpetuate violence. A soldier's job is to perpetuate peace! The goal of any "good" military should be to spare as many lives as possible. And if any military has a goal of sparing life at most any cost, then why should we kill others for far lesser crimes?

deathcricket wrote: But if a criminal is found committing a crime and is anything less than immediately cooperative, they will/should die. I consider this opinion to be like a student who understands arithmetic, and doesn't want to learn algebra. Remember, there are always variables (haha).

Did Joe give the criminals a chance to be cooperative? I don't think so. I think he surprised the guys pretty good, and then took care of business.

Another thought, someone who steals a pack of gum from the supermarket and runs out of the store deserves to die? This sounds like the Mosaic law, on steroids. Forget chopping off their hand, let's just finish them off... And I thought the Mosaic law was pretty severe and inhumane.

Quote: Why have a gun if you’re not ready to use it? I'm not going to sit there and let someone be hurt next door. I hope I would have the courage to confront the evil being done in my presense and do something about it. Good point. :haha: People shouldn't own guns, with the intent of meting out justice. You should not be judge, jury, and executioner. (thanks Quanell, for that one...)

deathcricket wrote: I respectfully and completely disagree with you on this. I feel greed is the main motivator. I think they don’t care who they hurt and are only sorry when they receive punishment because it affects them. Because they are the most important thing. If they had even a smidgen of care for anyone but themselves, they wouldn’t do such things. Unfair stereotype. Truth is, we don't know why they did it. Maybe their mom is sick, they can't pay the medical bills, and so they are trying to steal some stuff to get money to help her out, which in their mind is not evil. Might be a long shot, I know.

But the fact is, these people are PEOPLE. Their understanding of what they are doing is justified in their mind in some way. We may not agree with their justification, but I'm sure they still think about it. No one does anything without having a brain tell them why to do it, whether consciously or instinctively. Perhaps the criminals justified stealing by thinking that they had been done wrong by someone else, so they were going to get some justice by stealing from someone else. In their mind, it isn't wrong. To us, who observe from the outside, it is.

IMO, the solution is to figure out what their justification was (i.e. figure out what level of right and wrong they understand) and then help them understand how their justification wasn't appropriate. Kinda like learning arithmetic to understand algebra.

deathcricket wrote: Simple answer, intent and choice. The deer in my example is just running across the street, it doesn’t understand about cars. The driver doesn’t want to hit the deer, this would be an accident on both parts. Neither made a choice to harm the other and both lose. The person has an expensive repair bill and the deer loses it’s life.
Again, blanket statements about intent and choice are not black and white. We don't always know what criminals intent was. It's easy to think they are just worthless criminals, looking to get their next fix or whatever. But the bottom line is we don't know their intent, which is closely linked to their ability to truly discern different levels of wright and wrong.

Quote: A criminal chooses to commit a crime. He understands he is harming someone, either physically (rape example) or property wise (robber). His intent is to cause harm.
Again, false. I think you don't realize why people commit crime. The intent is rarely to cause harm, unless it is out of retaliation. And retaliation is the exact thing you are calling for. Which perpetuates the cycle.

Quote: He has free will of his actions, a conscience and chooses to ignore them. Or his greed outweighs both, and his “needs” (I use the term loosely) drive his motives. The fact that he is a sentient being makes this even worse. A shark cannot be blamed for attacking a human, since it’s going on instincts lets say. Again, they don't choose to ignore their conscience, their conscience simply isn't making the connections with all the other variables. And that doesn't make them innocent, nor does that mean we should pardon their actions. It means we need to punish them with a just sentence that will allow them to advance their decision making processes.

Quote: So yeah I feel worse for the deer, based on choice and intent.Life is what you make of it based on the tools you are given. If you use those tools to do evil things, you are less than an animal, and humans who are a danger to society need to be removed or put down. Ironically, that is the most animalistic view of our existence anyone could have. We, as humans, are some of the only animals who DON'T kill their weakest links, because we are an enlightened creature. We don't kill handicapped children who have limited means to contribute to society, but yet we should kill all criminals to better the species? Why not take it to the next step. Why don't we kill of all people who are below certain intelligent quotient levels? I know, that is extreme, but where do we stop? Criminals aren't the only ones taxing the human race. There is all sorts of dead weight all around us. How we choose to help those people is what makes us different from animals.

deathcricket wrote: If someone is disrespectful to me, my family, or property I will react accordingly.
And in your mind, accordingly could imply killing them? Again, I say there is a better way.

Quote: I dont feel its an issue of respect, but more an issue of them putting their needs above my self/family. His needs/whims are not more important than my well being. Again what is the persons intent? If a person causes you harm and didn’t meant to, then forgiveness is in order, even if they don’t ask for it. But if they are intending to cause hard and have made a choice to do so, then all bets are off, so to speak.
In my opinion, the reason people are disrespectful almost always stems from another situation. Perhaps mutual misunderstanding, that led to other feelings like jealousy, anger, distress, whatever. Random criminal acts are rare, most crime is usually motivated and justified in some form. And if the act truly is random, they are not usually directed at individuals specifically, but more because of other circumstances (i.e. my car was broken into not because it was MY car and they hate ME, but because the burglar saw it was a really expensive car, and figured there was money to be had.)

deathcricket wrote: Again I respectfully disagree completely. A person may become refined because they are punished and FEAR of getting caught keeps them from committing a crime again. But character is something that is really hard for a person to change, and only if they have a deep desire to do so. I’m for educating before the fact (drugs are bad MMMkay?), but again I stated that every person knows right from wrong and once you commit a crime, the time for education is over. Now it’s time for the consequences for your actions. You are responsible for your actions, not your lack of education.
Everyone knows the basics of right and wrong. Just like everyone knows basics of math. If I have one dollar bill, and I add another, I know that I now have two dollars. Most people can figure that out. Education is indeed the key to helping them understand the relationship those dollars have in local, federal, and global economies... It becomes quite an extrapolation. Likewise, understanding one person's impact on society requires education.

Quote: I’m also not a big fan of jail either for the record. If I had my choice I would give convicted criminals a one way flight to any destination of their choosing instead of jail time. Basically it would be BANISHMENT. They could go anywhere they like, just not stay here. Of course we would have to tighten our immigration protocols, to ensure they weren’t able to get back in the country. Maybe a retna scan? Anyone criminals found back in our country would face harsh punishments. But feeding them 3 meals a day, caged like a rat, getting free cable, and nothing to do but work out all day is not the answer. Especially since they are still being a burden on society wasting my tax dollars. Maybe you should stop being so selfish. :haha: Sounds like a great idea, until you are one who makes a mistake, and there is no compassion to be found. But perhaps you believe you will never make a mistake?

deathcricket wrote: Since I believe they have made a conscious choice to do society wrong and commit the crime, compassion is not in my heart for them. I simply want justice done, and society to function properly. A bullet is sometimes needed to remind criminals that we're are not all easy prey for them. Remember, just because you can do simple addition and subtraction, doesn't mean that you understand all mathematical formulas and theories. And subtracting a human life from this planet is not something that can be erased and reworked with the scrub of a pencil's end. There is a better way.

[Jaxx]

CarpeyBiggs wrote: Jaxx, I used to like your posts. Now I don't. I wish I could virtually kill you for not thinking like me. :lol8: (note the sarcasm...)

But seriously, what do you think on the matter? Would you kill someone for stealing your neighbors stuff? Are you comfortable with allowing others to do it? Do you think Joe should get off with no punishment? Was the punishment Joe meted out just?

And from a broader perspective, do you believe that there is any line of thinking that can solve all of our world problems? Or at least better the human condition?

I know I am obviously in the majority on this board, but I guess I really do believe that issues can be solved, and love and education are the key. Violence is not, and never will be.

I don't want to say my opinion because people will think I'm not a redneck right wing that only thinks for the right. I have a persona to keep up here.

I am wondering why this guy did what he did. I think there is something behind his motives like racism, mental issues, etc.
I think he murdered someone who wasn't threatening him in any way and he should be punished accordingly as a murderer. He wasn't in danger and that was where he went wrong. He should have called the cops and let them do their jobs.
If they were in his house I don't think a kind word or hug would have stopped the robbers. I am a full supporter of homeowners blasting scum that breaks into their house.
I also think this wouldn't get so much attention if the robbers weren't black.
AAAHHHHH! I just realized you tricked my uneducated mind into giving my opinion with your kind rational debating. Damn you Carpey you outsmarted me again!

[James_B_Wads2000]

CarpeyBiggs wrote: Unlike James, I apparently do believe that when we have these discussions, I can change people's minds. Perhaps I am just that naive.. :haha: But even if you don't want to believe a word I say, there is still value in the exercise. It's always good to analyze why you believe something, and see if you can advance your own thinking (myself included.) And hopefully, everyone realizes there is room for growth. It is the infallible thinkers who scare me, quite frankly.

Yes Dan you are naïve, but I applaud you effort. And for the record I don’t think I am and infallible thinker.(were you talking about me or deathcricket?)

CarpeyBiggs wrote: Good point. :haha: People shouldn't own guns, with the intent of meting out justice.

I want one so I can delude myself into thinking that I will always be safe… no really I want one so I can prove I am not a pussy.

CarpeyBiggs wrote: Unfair stereotype. Truth is, we don't know why they did it. Maybe their mom is sick, they can't pay the medical bills, and so they are trying to steal some stuff to get money to help her out, which in their mind is not evil. Might be a long shot, I know.

But the fact is, these people are PEOPLE. Their understanding of what they are doing is justified in their mind in some way. We may not agree with their justification, but I'm sure they still think about it. No one does anything without having a brain tell them why to do it, whether consciously or instinctively. Perhaps the criminals justified stealing by thinking that they had been done wrong by someone else, so they were going to get some justice by stealing from someone else. In their mind, it isn't wrong. To us, who observe from the outside, it is.

Notice how Dan here is saying the same thing I did , only nicer.

CarpeyBiggs wrote: Why don't we kill of all people who are below certain intelligent quotient levels?

Better look out deathcricket this could include you!!


James

[James_B_Wads2000]

Jaxx wrote: I don't want to say my opinion because people will think I'm not a redneck right wing that only thinks for the right. I have a persona to keep up here.

I am wondering why this guy did what he did. I think there is something behind his motives like racism, mental issues, etc.
I think he murdered someone who wasn't threatening him in any way and he should be punished accordingly as a murderer. He wasn't in danger and that was where he went wrong. He should have called the cops and let them do their jobs.
If they were in his house I don't think a kind word or hug would have stopped the robbers.

So pretty much we are in full agreement here, so why are you flaming me again?

Jaxx wrote: I am a full supporter of homeowners blasting scum that breaks into their house.

There is limitations here. Would have to look at the circumstances.

Jaxx wrote: I also think this wouldn't get so much attention if the robbers weren't black.

This makes the act of killing them less evil? Just because some people may use this event to perpetuate some “poor-me” agenda, it should be played down or ignored?


James