Bogley

[climbinghalfdome]

Whats the PNW?
Trad climbing is all about leading on solid ground, and placing gear. Freedom of the hills is the most extencive guide on how to place gear I've yet seen.
In my opinion the best way to learn to place gear is to follow someone for a while who knows, that way you can see how the pieces fit into the rock and how to remove them.
A well placed piece is solid when fallen on and easy to remove by the second. If your clipping up 11's then Exum complete should be Cake.
Kevin

[Iceaxe]

climbinghalfdome wrote: Whats the PNW?

Pacific North West.

:popcorn:

[shaggy125]

I have the freedom of the hills book, just not a big fan of figuring this stuff out on my own, I would rather read up on what is safe and what isn't then actually have someone show me how it's done. Thinking of taking a class or something this year.

[Iceaxe]

shaggy125 wrote: Thinking of taking a class or something this year.

When I got back into climbing (mid 90's) after being away from the sport for almost 20 years I hired Exum of Utah for two days to get me back up to speed. it was well worth the coin.

:popcorn:

[climbinghalfdome]

I was on summitpost and was looking at the description and it sounds like its up my alley. Bold long 5.6 -5.7 climbing. I've been looking for ways to avoid the hoards of people that swarm up Garnet Canyon and I know that 90+% of the Grands traffic is on the Exum Ridge and Owen Spalding.
What do you think?
Kevin

[neumannbruce]

Price

Want to do lower exum and petzolts ridge this summer?

[climbinghalfdome]

From the homework that I've done the Lower Exum and Potzolt ridge seem to be side by side. Unless your thinking two seperate trips, I'm thinking your wanting to cruse Petzolt ridge then finish off the top of upper exum.
(Summitpost.org route description of Petzolt Ridge) "Upon reaching the top, rappel anchors can be found just on the other side and down about 6 feet. There is a nice footledge to stand on. Rappel down to the col between Petzoldt and Exum Ridge. Climb the lefthand couloir in about a pitch and a half of scrambling and low class 5 (there may be snow/ice earlier in season).
Approximate time to here from Lower Saddle: don't underestimate the route-finding, allow at least 6 hours.
From there you can walk all the way around to the left past the Golden Stair and rappel down to Wall Street and descend back to the Lower Saddle, or you can continue to the summit via Upper Exum Ridge. Note: if you decide to descend via Wall St, Teton Classics describes the rappel to Wall Street as being 60 feet -- from where we rappeled it was more like 45-50 meters, so use caution and tie two ropes together if necessary."

I'd be up for that too. I'm tired of the Upper Exum and OS and I'm looking for something different.
Are you OK with simul climbing on 5.5 and less? I'm reading a Seed Cimbing Book CoWritten by Hans Florine and There are some really good tricks that can speed things up rather than traditional Multi pitch climbing.
Kevin
What dates are you thinking?

[Brian in SLC]

climbinghalfdome wrote: Are you OK with simul climbing on 5.5 and less? I'm reading a Seed Cimbing Book CoWritten by Hans Florine and There are some really good tricks that can speed things up rather than traditional Multi pitch climbing.

Might I suggest that folks who don't know each other's ability NOT simul climb together in the Tetons on easy fifth class? Yikes.

You'd be way better off soloing.

Speed climbing book does have some nice tricks. But, seems to also imply that folks graduate into some of that stuff with a regular partner and its worked up to, not something done with someone they meet on the 'net...

With an early start and reasonable rope management, you wouldn't need to shave that kinda time anyhow, on either of those routes in the Tetons. Some of that speed climbing involves MUCH higher risk. And, in a crowded spot like the Tetons, that risk gets spread around to other folks, too.

Instead of crowded classics (upper Exum by either lower Exum or cut across from the Petzoldt will be really jammed with folks, especially later in the day when you've already belayed a few pitches on either of those routes), why not do something on the Middle, or Owen, or Buck, or Nez Perce, or....

Cheers,

-Brian in SLC

[climbinghalfdome]

Bryan's Too right. You can never be too careful.. I can see that I'll have to be more careful what I say on this list.
The Speed Climbing book mentions many tricks that speed things up w/out compromising safety. Simul-climbing is just one of them. IMHO I think its safer under the right circumstances such as; weather, rock quality, protect ability, climbers’ ability, climbers’ comfort level, and should a fall happen is the ground forgiving. Only after being on the route can one decide if it’s the right circumstances or not or needed or not. It would be nice to know if that is an option or not before we get there. That’s why I'm trying to find out more about the person before sharing the rope. If the person I'm meeting on the NET isn't comfortable lead climbing a 5.3-5.5 then I'd need to adjust accordingly. I'd consider myself more of a guide on that kind of trip, not as much a partner. (I've guided the upper Exum as well as soloed it and I'm very comfortable moving quickly on that kind of ground, Petzolt Ridge seems very similar. Naturally I'd like to find someone with my similar ability and confidence.) My reasons for even asking (thats all I did was ask) is to see if that was even an option as well as get a feel for his or her comfort level.
I have to disagree with the amount of risk Bryan implied though. Speed Climbing just like in Speed Walking, Jogging, and Running means covering larger distances quicker than normal. In the mountains (a place inherently dangerous) there is safety in being in the danger zone as little as possible. Rather than time lost standing around at belays, several safe tricks can be used to create a moving belay station so less standing around takes place. Want more details? The book is full of them.
I would never wish to impose risk on other parties or have their risk imposed on me. For that reason I'm looking for less traveled out of the way places. As previously mentioned 90+% of the Grand’s traffic is on the OS and Upper Exum because they are the easiest. IMHO The less folks on the climb, the better. Besides it’s safer that way. If I HAD to travel a popular route the less time I spent on it the better, its safer that way.
Thanks for your deep concern Bryan. Consider it duly noted. Like I said you can never be too careful.
If there are any takers for the East ridge or Petzolt Ridge this summer, please contact me off the list. And no, you don't have to simul-climb to join me.
Kevin
kevin_likes_to_climb_much@hotmail.com

[Brian in SLC]

climbinghalfdome wrote: I'd consider myself more of a guide on that kind of trip, not as much a partner. (I've guided the upper Exum as well as soloed it and I'm very comfortable moving quickly on that kind of ground

Who'd you guide for? Jackson Hole or Exum?

Do you know Ken Jern? Ask him about guiding the Exum and running it out on the friction pitch...

How 'bout Paul Horton? Character...

climbinghalfdome wrote: In the mountains (a place inherently dangerous) there is safety in being in the danger zone as little as possible. Rather than time lost standing around at belays, several safe tricks can be used to create a moving belay station so less standing around takes place. Want more details? The book is full of them.

No question that in the Tetons, speed can be safety. But, what I usually see, is folks who have to make up for lack of an early start and route finding saavy, having to cut corners. With an early start and good route finding, some of the "speed climbing" stuff that Hans puts forth in his book is worth a look see. And some is debatable (and...we do).

I belayed 20 pitches on the East Ridge. Had either of us fallen, wouldn't have been a big deal (ok, not true a couple of times, on that pitch or two around the snow ridge prior to the summit headwall). Was work to pitch it out, but, much safer methinks. Easier for rope management. Not as much chance for knockin' rocks down on other folks with the rope. Always a solid belay in case "something" happened. With moving belays and simul climbing, your margin is much thinner. The consequences of a fall are much more significant, and, if you read ANAM, there's plenty of stories of folks blowing it and both climbers die.

Its all fun and games 'till someone gets an eye poked out...ha ha. Geez, I'm soundin' like the safety mommy here...

Nice shot on Wheat Thin. Any chance you can resize it? Taking up a huge amount of space for some reason.

Ahhh, the City of Rocks. Did you hang out w/ Dottie? She's a kick. I usually don't spend as much time in the City in the summer (too hot) but spring and fall is always fun.

I try to do a few trips to the Tetons every year. Perfect for the working weekend warrior (ie, most everything is doable in a two day weekend).

This is gettin' me psyched! Geez, between pictures of the City and talk of the Tetons...good thing its still winter...

Cheers!

-Brian in SLC

[gonzo]

I'd love to climb the Grand, but I'm under no illusions that I could actually do it in the near future. (My level of overall climbing experience hovers around "not-quite-a-beginner-yet", and my trad experience amounts to being able to spell "trad").

What are some good local climbs that could yield a little experience? Would I be best served to hook up with a guide service like Exum?

Sorry to threadjack.

[climbinghalfdome]

If you ask me a guide is the way to go if your gunning for the top and are "not quite a beginner". I personaly have never used a guide service but I've asked many folks who have what they think.
Generaly
EXUM's reputation tends to be expensive and a little self righteous.
Jackson Hole Mtn Guids are more personable and customer friendly.
The big perk with using a guide is the knowledge that they will go overboard to ensure safety and a good experience. The other big perk is training that you get from a guide. They show you exactly what you need to know and will answer all the questions you can fire at them.
I've poked fun at some EXUM guides because they can be seen at the front of any group over 5 in Garnet Canyon.
My 2 cents.... If your new, get a guide. You'll thank me.
Kevin

[climbinghalfdome]

Ken is a great guy. He gave me some pointers on quick climbing tricks.
Paul Horton... One Crazy guy. Doubt he'd know me. He's got a reputation for sure. We'd swap lies at the climbing gym in Jackson.

I lived in Almo working for the State Park's, what a dream. I didn't hang out with Dottie (Camp Host) much. I was eather at work, on the rock, or home. I found a 3 bedroom place to rent next to Castle Rocks. Nicest folks round there. If I could support a family there I would for sure.

Thanks to Bryan SLC for the East Ridge Beta. 20 pitches sounds like a full day. Just imagine if you could shave 5 minutes off of each belay, that is 1 hour less on the route! If you can divide the route into 5 or 6 blocks, you could shave even more. Did you camp at the base of the route or do the whole thing in one push?
I'll admit that I shave corners on safety occasionaly, but only on easy ground and only when the risk is managable, and only when its consentual.
Kevin

[Brian in SLC]

climbinghalfdome wrote: Paul Horton... One Crazy guy. Doubt he'd know me. He's got a reputation for sure. We'd swap lies at the climbing gym in Jackson.

Climbed with him here in SLC. Funny. Felt bad for him in the last year or too. Tough thing to have to deal with (Cloudviel North Ridge if you recall that deal). Ran into him on the trail several times after that. Poignant. Heavy sigh...

We were hiking into Wister when that gig went down. Actually found a rangers walkie talkie, which he was super psyched to get back (SAR effort deal).

climbinghalfdome wrote: Thanks to BRIAN (not Bryan) SLC for the East Ridge Beta. 20 pitches sounds like a full day. Just imagine if you could shave 5 minutes off of each belay, that is 1 hour less on the route! If you can divide the route into 5 or 6 blocks, you could shave even more. Did you camp at the base of the route or do the whole thing in one push?

Actually, we did it in one block, if you will. I led the whole thing. We didn't dally much and climbed the route in fairly good time, keeping pace with the other half of our crew (one of which who'd done the grand on his 40th birthday in around 3:30 from the parking lot, not bad for an old bugger, ha ha). So, not much dinkin' around and we totally nailed the route finding, never reloading or wandering around.

We hiked in the day prior and camped at a bivy spot up high on the ridge, below the traverese to the first technical gully (which is just below the Tricky Traverse pitch). Beauty spot, in mid-ish season, there's water from a snowfield nearby. Was warm, bivy sack only for me. Fairly light packs for climbing (carry over). We were two parties of two so combo's on a single pocket rocket and Ti pot and only carried a single 8mm each party, to have for the long standard rappel (although a single 70m would have worked too). Light ice axes, boots, crampons, rock shoes and approach shoes. Still, not too heavy a pack.

We weren't really looking to set a speed record, for sure. Could have saved some time by cutting over near the top to the Ford Coulior area, but, instead did the classic finish over to the north ridge, which, was worth the extra time there (although we lost a bunch of time when my partner didn't nail a poorly protected traverse and had to fiddle around trying to get up a tough spot. Partly my fault for not leaving a piece or two to guide her up, but, head down and tired, she just didn't see the easy way).

Also could have cut some time off by camping lower and ditchin' the campin' gear maybe at the moraine on the Teton Glacier. But, neat to get up high and much warmer up there (which is wierd to ponder, but, inverted as usual in part of the summer). We'd have had to cut down the black dike back to camp, though, or worse (hike back up for it).

Had a number of friends do it in a day, some comfy, some epic'ing. And, another who soloed it (by total chance we watched him from camp after we did the Stettner to Ford one season, same day a guide died on the O-S). On a later solo of it, whilst portering for Exum, he slipped at the chockstone. That was the end of his chances to guide for Exum, and, the end of his climbing career (got pretty busted up). So, there can be a limit to all this time saving stuff... Yikes!

Anyhoo, fun stuff.

-Brian in SLC