Bogley

[JamisJockey]

Well, the supply still left in the ground is debatable. The undeniable facts are that India and China are using up the global supply so fast that there is no way to control the prices right now. Any impact on supply causes an immediate ripple through the economy. Of course, the oil companies will always get thiers.
BTW, the only reason gas is so expensive in Europe is taxes. In some countries, its over 100% of the value of the fuel.

[Superriffic S*]

Here is my thought...

I think we should deplete all the crude oil resources... by then they will be forced to find a better more efficient means to propel automobiles. If I could help deplete them faster I would. Like, if there was a way to say, drive an airplane down the highway, I would totally fill that sucker every day and cruise down the highway at 80mph just to FORCE the manufacturers to find a better way.

Hell, why can't they find a way to make a car run off salt water...? New Orleans wouldn't be in near the pickle that they are now if we were using salt water instead of gasoline to run cars. (I know that it wouldn't have held the levee's any longer if we were using salt water instead of gasoline) Hey, wasn't there an x-files episode about that? The Truth Is Out There... :mrgreen:

[derstuka]

JamisJockey wrote: Well, the supply still left in the ground is debatable. The undeniable facts are that India and China are using up the global supply so fast that there is no way to control the prices right now. Any impact on supply causes an immediate ripple through the economy. Of course, the oil companies will always get thiers.
BTW, the only reason gas is so expensive in Europe is taxes. In some countries, its over 100% of the value of the fuel.

Yes, I agree, it is debateable how much crude is left in the earth's crust, but, don't you agree that oil has its limits? Just as every other natural resource does. That there is only so much oil that the earth will provide. I am mostly just tired of relying on other countries to give us the fuel that we need, and whatever price they deem necessary, but on the other hand, we, as many others, are extremely wasteful with what we have. The taxes in Europe on fuels may seem unfair to many, but they do provide incentive to own gas misers, as well as promoting public transit.

As I mentioned before, developing countries (such as China & India) have an insatiable thrist. As more and more countries develop, and grow larger, demanding more fuel, it is only going to get worse, and worse in the long run.

Regardless if we drive cars which are more fuel efficient than those in the past, we need send the message to the automakers that we want them to get even better, and put more pressure to find other alternative fuels. Sure they are trying, but not like they should be, because there isn't as much demand to do so. As long as people keep buying large SUV, trucks and cars, they will keep doing as they have been doing, well, with the exception of Toyota and Honday maybe.

[Sombeech]

Whether or not we are running out of oil, if it happens, we will see it coming.

We do have automobiles today that run on different energy sources. If oil gets depleted, will it really be that big of deal? We will NEVER go back to horse and carriage. We've got electricity, solar, hydrogen, propane, natural gas, COOKING OIL, and who knows what else technology to run a vehicle. These models are in operation today!!

Why are we afraid of running out of oil? I'm not. But if we ever do, we are going to get PLENTY of notice before it happens. Gas pumps won't just go dry one day. People get PAID to know how much oil there is.

I would wager a large amount of money on this theory:
If we get close to running out of oil, mankind will stop buying gasoline cars, and start buying one of the other energy propelled cars. This won't happen at once, but just as slowly as we all buy new vehicles.

Then, gasoline vehicles will almost be obsolete, and the small amount of oil left might never run out.

[derstuka]

Sombeech wrote: Whether or not we are running out of oil, if it happens, we will see it coming.

We do have automobiles today that run on different energy sources. If oil gets depleted, will it really be that big of deal? We will NEVER go back to horse and carriage. We've got electricity, solar, hydrogen, propane, natural gas, COOKING OIL, and who knows what else technology to run a vehicle. These models are in operation today!!

Why are we afraid of running out of oil? I'm not. But if we ever do, we are going to get PLENTY of notice before it happens. Gas pumps won't just go dry one day. People get PAID to know how much oil there is.

I would wager a large amount of money on this theory:
If we get close to running out of oil, mankind will stop buying gasoline cars, and start buying one of the other energy propelled cars. This won't happen at once, but just as slowly as we all buy new vehicles.

Then, gasoline vehicles will almost be obsolete, and the small amount of oil left might never run out.

I myself am not afraid of running out of gas, I just want us to reduce our reliance on foreign fuels, which makes our economy so much more susceptible to international conflicts/problems.

The current "alternative" fuel vehicles are such a small percentage of the driving public currently, and of those vehicles you mentioned: electric cars primarily get power from fossil fuel electric plants, and nuclear plants (VERY few by green energy); solar is nice, but not feasible yet; and hydrogen is still unfeasible until the storage problem, and reforming problem is addressed, it will take more power to get the energy out of hydrogen, than its output,after all hyrdogen atoms are attached to other atoms, and have to be separated, but hydrogen is getting closer, but not there yet; propane and natural gas are fossil fuels which will eventually run out; cooking oils (bio-diesels) are a good idea, especially to burn up waste if it can be eco-clean somewhat. The thing is, the U.S. has been running out of crude oil since the 80's, when our imports starting exceeding our outputs. If people realized this, they would have started demanding/making/buying alternative fuel cars long ago. Sh*t, at least back to the Iran oil embargo.

My question is, why isn't the vast majority of us ameri cans already buying alternative fuel (or fuel efficient) vehicles? Since many complain about OPEC (or BIG oil), and have for 30 years or more, why not screw the pooch and throw them out of the equation by providing for our own economy??? Since I don't see any people around me driving less, driving slower, or buying gas misers, I don't know how much faith I have in a smooth transition of gas-autos to alternative fuel autos. Many people will fight it to the end, and be proud that they are still driving their 8 mile-to-the-gallon guzzler, and not giving a rat's ass about anybody but themselves, helping to escalate the depletion of fossil fuels for all. Oh, and developing countries are a looooong way off from ever using anything non-fossil fuel related. They can't afford to.

Man, I think this is enough preaching for a day. Talk about a gabber! :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah:

[rockgremlin]

Shan wrote: There was a great National Geographic article on "The End of Cheap Oil." It said we do have a limited supply and it will end in our lifetimes.

I seriously doubt this. My grandparents made the same claim back in the day. Two generations later, and there's still plenty to go around. Remember the infamous oil crisis of the 70's? The claim was that we were running out of oil so fast that the world's supply would be gone by the 90's. They were all bulls**t claims, and they weren't made on sound scientific conclusions.

I'm not saying that oil will NEVER be depleted, just not in our lifetimes.

Don't believe the hype the media tries to sell you.

[rockgremlin]

derstuka wrote: Oh, and developing countries are a looooong way off from ever using anything non-fossil fuel related. They can't afford to.

Yes, unfortunately very true. But remember, the mighty U.S. of A. started out this way too. Now that we are as advanced as we are, we SHOULD be setting the example, by being more responsible in our energy usage. Alternative energy sources should be the rule not the exception in America - we have the capability, we should act on it.

[Shan]

http://magma.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0406/feature5/fulltext.html

Here's the article I read, I think NG is a pretty reliable source.

I will correct myself, it said the OIL PEAK will be in our lifetime. I thought it said the end, but it's been a while since I read before today.

Quote: Humanity's way of life is on a collision course with geology—with the stark fact that the Earth holds a finite supply of oil. The flood of crude from fields around the world will ultimately top out, then dwindle. It could be 5 years from now or 30: No one knows for sure, and geologists and economists are embroiled in debate about just when the "oil peak" will be upon us. But few doubt that it is coming. "In our lifetime," says economist Robert K. Kaufmann of Boston University, who is 46, "we will have to deal with a peak in the supply of cheap oil.

And I agree wholeheartedly with this guy's statement:
"People should be doing something now to reduce oil dependence and not waiting for Mother Nature to slap them in the face"

[Sombeech]

derstuka wrote: My question is, why isn't the vast majority of us ameri cans already buying alternative fuel (or fuel efficient) vehicles?

There's a lot of people asking this. I believe the answer is, we don't want to yet.

We know we can make the alternate fuel cars, but why change now? The car companies would jump on the chance to manufacture them, but the demand isn't there yet.

Let's say we found out there's only 10 years supply of oil left for earth. (and this information would be easy to get) We'd have no problem coming out with the alternate energy source automobiles in time.

The gas prices are huge right now. Some say this helps the economy because we are spending more, some say it hurts because we travel less. Either way, it's not because of the scarcity of the supply. It's because of the low production rate compared to demand. This only solidifies the careers of oil related businesses, and this is big money.

I'm not sure the government is motivated to get out of this industry just yet, especially since we still have a very big supply left.

[Shan]

If anyone lives near these gas stations:

Tesaro
1350 East 700 South
Clearfield, UT 84105

Chevron
267 West 12300 South
Draper, UT 84020

Christensen Oil Company
595 S. 200 East
Provo, UT 84606

AND drives one of these models (http://www.e85fuel.com/e85101/flexfuelvehicles.php), you can purchase ethanol for way cheaper than gasoline because your car is a flex fuel vehicle.

[Sombeech]

Ethanol, huh? Interesting.

I've got a '99 Ford Taurus. I'm gonna check it out.

And then I remember good ol' WHEAT. The stuff they make Top Fuel out of. Just one more "home grown" fuel alternative, that is already in mass production, used every day, and every week at the drag strips.

[rockgremlin]

Shan wrote:
Quote: Humanity's way of life is on a collision course with geology—with the stark fact that the Earth holds a finite supply of oil. The flood of crude from fields around the world will ultimately top out, then dwindle. It could be 5 years from now or 30: No one knows for sure, and geologists and economists are embroiled in debate about just when the "oil peak" will be upon us. But few doubt that it is coming. "In our lifetime," says economist Robert K. Kaufmann of Boston University, who is 46, "we will have to deal with a peak in the supply of cheap oil.

And I agree wholeheartedly with this guy's statement:
"People should be doing something now to reduce oil dependence and not waiting for Mother Nature to slap them in the face"

Notice it said CHEAP oil, not oil in general.

I also agree with your quote about Mother Nature. We should be acting today, not when a crisis is imminent.

The estimates about global oil supply are just ridiculous. There's new reserves being found on a pretty regular basis. Reserves also depend on new advances in extraction technology. Did you know that there's as much oil in Eastern Utah as there is in the Middle East? It's true! The problem is Utah oil is locked up in oil shales, and the process to extract the oil from those shales is currently not economical...yet. Once the technology to extract that oil becomes more efficient Utah will be making BIG $$$.

[Sombeech]

rockgremlin wrote: Once the technology to extract that oil becomes more efficient Utah will be making BIG $$$.

Buy land now :deal:

[Udink]

Superriffic S* wrote: I think I am stayin' home this weekend...
I had plans for the weekend, but I've since cancelled them. I think I'm just going to park my big 7.3L diesel until prices come back down. Unless they don't come down anytime soon, in which case I'll have to limit my camping trips to one or two a month, and keep it close to home. Good thing the weather will be cooling off soon so I can head into the Swell--it's only an hour drive from here to some great camping there.

[derstuka]

Sombeech wrote: derstuka wrote: My question is, why isn't the vast majority of us ameri cans already buying alternative fuel (or fuel efficient) vehicles?

There's a lot of people asking this. I believe the answer is, we don't want to yet.

We know we can make the alternate fuel cars, but why change now? The car companies would jump on the chance to manufacture them, but the demand isn't there yet.

Let's say we found out there's only 10 years supply of oil left for earth. (and this information would be easy to get) We'd have no problem coming out with the alternate energy source automobiles in time.

The gas prices are huge right now. Some say this helps the economy because we are spending more, some say it hurts because we travel less. Either way, it's not because of the scarcity of the supply. It's because of the low production rate compared to demand. This only solidifies the careers of oil related businesses, and this is big money.

I'm not sure the government is motivated to get out of this industry just yet, especially since we still have a very big supply left.

Sombeech:

There are so many people who believe that we can do as we choose, use as much energy as wastefully as we see fit, and not suffer any consequences because we are america, the "superpower" and we can do whatever we want. Statements such as you mention of people are backing up exactly the mentality that is all too common here in the grand ole USA. A mentality that americans can do as they please, regardless of the environment, or effects on world resources. People need to be educated on an issue such as this, because ignorance is not an excuse--IMO.

Rockgremlin:

Think of it this way. The world has over 6 billion people, thousands more are born each day; people are living longer and longer, countries are demanding more fuel/energy---regardless of new oil findings, there is only a limited amount of a fuel which has taken millions of years to form; however, say we somehow find a limitless supply of fossil fuels....does that mean that we should keep pumping coal/gas/diesel, and other chemicals into our atmosphere till the end of time, or should we, the "supposedly" greatest country on this earth, lead by example and show other countries it can be done, and they should do it?

How much pollution are you willing to inhale, or your family to inhale? How much is nature (in this case, Utah) worth compared to business? What would you think if George Bush and his BIG OIL buddies came down to Utah, and took over huge portions of it to produce fuels? Destroying the land you ride/hunt/play on, causing pollution, and in general making a mess. Ever seen pictures of Texas after SpindleTop blew? True, derricks, that size/form are rare today, but it was a sight to behold, and frightful. As you may assume, I am a big supporter of making use of as much green energy as possible, which is benefical to us, yet "less" harmful to the environment. Sure, some green energy sources do have an impact, but not as much so.

Don't think that I don't condone you driving a car, or motorcycle, or boat, I am just saying that as a country our mentality (like sombeech's example of people not ready) does need to change--IMO. If we consumers demand it, change can/will happen.