Bogley

[CarpeyBiggs]

Ah my friend, all those problems are mitigated by well built lenses. Sure, a crappy lens looks better on a small sensor, because it is only using the sweetest part of the image circle. But if you have a lens that creates a larger image circle, and is sharper through the whole sensor, than the sensor is capable of higher resolution than a small one. You do realize that most lenses are designed to cover a full 36mm sensor? Are you suggesting that medium format and large format cameras are insufficient?

Simply stated, the pros to a larger sensor outweighs the cons, when all other factors are held to similar standards. If a lens is engineered to resolve a high amount of lines of resolution over a large image circle, then the bigger the area the light is recorded to, the higher the overall resolution (i.e. large format systems).

All other advantages to a small sensor are moot. If a full sized 36mm sensor was designed with the same pixel pitch as a DX sized sensor, you could simply crop the full size image to the 1.5x factor of the smaller sensor, and achieve the same effect (i.e. apparent angle of view). So why wouldn't you want a larger sensor? Are you suggesting that medium and large format sensors aren't higher resolution than your DX sized nikon sensor?

Here is a quote from the article you mentioned:
Quote: FF Sensor Pros:

* no lens factors
* high resolution
* less high ISO noise

FF Sensor Cons:

* corner image softness
* light falloff
* less depth of field
* more edge chromatic aberration
* higher cost


All of the "cons" are results of Lens defects and aberrations, and have nothing to do with the sensor. Larger cost is indeed true, simply because the yields of silicon wafers favor smaller chips. Which is why Nikon can't afford to create a full frame chip, they don't manufacture their own sensors.

But the pros are great. Higher resolution, less noise, and lenses operate as they were designed. Sounds great to me!

Furthermore:
Quote: DX sized sensor Pros:

* increased depth of field
* higher resolution
* no light falloff
* no corner image softness
* less edge chromatic aberration
* 1.5x lens factor (if you shoot a lot of telephoto)
* lower cost

DX sized sensor Cons:

* increased high ISO noise
* 1.5x lens factor (if you shoot a lot of wide angle)


Depth of field is not "increased" with a DX sized sensor. It is a matter of subject distance and focal length. You are simply cropping the image circle the lens casts. This is actually a bad thing if you are trying to separate your background from your subject (i.e. sports shooters). The resolution is not higher for a DX sensor, unless you are talking pixel pitch. Which isn't necessarily a good thing. The most important thing is signal to noise ratio, i.e. quality of the signal recorded per pixel. Small pixel pitches negatively affect S/N ratio. Again, the only other "pros" are based on lenses defects. If you have good lenses, those are non-issues.

[CarpeyBiggs]

If you really want to learn why full 36mm sensors are ideal, you can read the Canon white paper, which contains alot of well presented information. Sure, it is put out by Canon, but the information is accurate.

http://www.robgalbraith.com/public_files/Canon_Full-Frame_CMOS_White_Paper.pdf

[Win]

I was checking out the 40D and it seems to be a real nice camera. I've been toying with getting a second body and this may be near perfect. No hurry, though, it looks like Canons last entry has some early issues, the 1DsMarkIII.

Win

[JP]

CarpeyBiggs wrote: Canon gimmick? 'Splain yo'self. Sounds like you've been reading a little too much Ken Rockwell...
Ahh, so you're a Canon fanatic and nothing else matches up to them, ehh :haha:
I believe it was October two years ago they released the 30D.

[CarpeyBiggs]

JP wrote: CarpeyBiggs wrote: Canon gimmick? 'Splain yo'self. Sounds like you've been reading a little too much Ken Rockwell...
Ahh, so you're a Canon fanatic and nothing else matches up to them, ehh :haha:
I believe it was October two years ago they released the 30D.

First off, no need to put words in my mouth JP. I can speak for myself.

Secondly, the 30D was announced Feb of last year, 18 months ago.

Lastly, the main point of anything I had to say is that a full frame sensor almost always trumps a DX or APS-C sized sensor, regardless of what company your camera is from. Sure, I shoot Canon. Why? No one else makes a full frame sensor right now. I hope Nikon comes out with one, it will drive prices down for everyone, and increase R&D.

As for a complete system, you're right, there is unfortunately no competition right now. I shoot mainly landscapes, and Nikon (or anyone else) has no offerings with a full frame sensor. I also shoot sports on the side. You ever taken a look at who is shooting what at an event? Canon's dominate that market as well. I bet 80 percent of all sports shooters and newspaper dailies are shooting Canon.

Nikon has some great stuff for the "prosumer" market. Mainly the D80 and D200, both of which are probably a better value than Canon's current offerings (Rebel XTi, 30D). I assume the 40D will impact this market significantly, and Nikon will rebut with another great camera themselves. But their high end stuff doesn't even compare. The 5D and 1DsII have no competition, or the 1DmkII, 1DmkIIn or the new 1dmkIII. Nikon simply can't make their own sensors right now, so it isn't cost effective. Trust me, I am one who is hoping Nikon releases a full frame camera very soon. It will be great for the market.

So, Canon fanboy or not, my only point is how is a full frame 36x24 sensor a gimmick? That's just plain nonsense, even for Nikon fans.

[gonzo]

Bah. Go Holga, and you don't have to worry about any of it. ;)

[JP]

CarpeyBiggs wrote: First off, no need to put words in my mouth JP. I can speak for myself.
No need to get your panties in a bunch attitude boy. :roll: Wasn't putting words in anyones mouth, your bias is plainly obvious :nod:

And will you be upgrading to this 40D?

[stefan]

very interesting information, dan.

i suppose one's gimmick is another's godsend?

kinda like a $150 bottle of wine ...

[CarpeyBiggs]

JP wrote: Wasn't putting words in anyones mouth, your bias is plainly obvious :nod:

Your gift of discernment never ceases to amaze... :hail2thechief:

As for the 40D, it would certainly make a nice backup camera, especially for sports, but it doesn't really fit in my lineup right now. The 5D and my backup suit me just fine. Although I imagine this is just a preview of the what the 5D will update to in the future, for which I will probably upgrade.

I may take a peek at the G9 though...

[waltny]

Well I disagree with most of your antidotical evidence. I also see I was wrong to swell up on the resident board expert, who is educated in the subject, not just a hack like myself. So other than that, I will let my inferior setup do the talking once I scrounge up enough to buy it.


To each their own....

[CarpeyBiggs]

waltny wrote: Well I disagree with most of your antidotical evidence. I also see I was wrong to swell up on the resident board expert, who is educated in the subject, not just a hack like myself. So other than that, I will let my inferior setup do the talking once I scrounge up enough to buy it.
To each their own....

Perhaps I was a little too blunt with my original posts. I wasn't trying to claim one brand is superior to the other, simply correct the fact that a full frame is a "gimmick." There certainly are pros and cons to both. Sorry if it seemed like I exploded. I reread my posts and realized they were a little more forceful than I intended.

Good news is, now almost all SLR cameras are better than their operator... So any camera can produce some pretty impressive stuff. Indeed, to each their own.

I am curious, if you don't mind discussing, why you disagree with the evidence. Feel free expand if you want. I expect JP will keep me in line in the future.... :lol8:

[JP]

CarpeyBiggs wrote: I expect JP will keep me in line in the future.... :lol8:
I like that tag for you "Resident Board Expert" :haha: Keep you in line :lol8: You keep us in line :hail2thechief: :hail2thechief: :hail2thechief: :hail2thechief: :hail2thechief: :haha:

[Richard Barron]

You guys might want to wait for this baby...

[JP]

Wow, these things are turning into little computers :haha:

[gonzo]

I can use that Inspiration button. I'm feeling pretty uninspired lately.