Bogley

[Bo_Beck]

I saw the topic of Via Ferratas and the new emplacement in Ogden as a controversial Topic. Whats the Beef? Geeze! We can build new developments at a wildfire pace, new roads to access these developments, more cars to reach these developments, more grocery stores to feed the occupants for these developments, more schools to educate the kids of the parents of these developments.....what happened to recreation for the kids of these developments?

I spent just one week in Italy 5 years ago and saw what I would like to see happen in America. ACTIVITY and PRESERVATION of the NATURAL RESOURCES. Granted....Via Ferratas are a part of the history, but supply a wholesome (unlike x-box, nintendo) activity to all. What the HELL is wrong with putting a little bit of 'ferrata' in the rock to provide a wholesome, exciting experience for those not content with sitting eating a bag of Lays?

Just a little (very little) history. Ferrata Lipella. An access to Tofana di Rozes. The Austrians were bombing the hell out of the Italians. The Italians created a Via made of Ferrata to access a butress on the west side of the Tofana. Dug a 1/4 mile tunnel in the solid Dolomite and placed explosives at the end to bring them down. Historic? Yes! Now one of MANY Via Ferratas preserved in Northern Italy. BUT BUT BUT BUT.........They provide recreation for everyone, history or not! I Walked around Tre Cime di Lavaredo on a Sunday Afternoon. Moms and Dads with their young ones on a picnic as the snow flurries made us cover our faces. Did it stop them? Heck No!

Why can't we get out here in Amarica and recreate!? Oh yeah! I forgot about the impact of some cables and bolts up high that will piss off those that would probably never have gone up there anyway?

:ne_nau: :nod: :cool2: :2thumbs: :rockon: :frustrated: :eek2:

[Brian in SLC]

Bo_Beck wrote: I saw the topic of Via Ferratas and the new emplacement in Ogden as a controversial Topic. Whats the Beef?

The whole Waterfalls Canyon development thing kinda reeks as a exclusive outdoor disneyland club for the well heeled, Bo. Note that in the plan is a gated community and high priced condo's, golf course, etc.

My beef with via ferratas is that it is a cheap thrill ride at the fair type thing that's not warrented especially on public land, especially given how kids these days, with a small amount of application, can out climb most of us older folks within a month or two of training.

Quote: what happened to recreation for the kids of these developments?

Can't compete with watching TV, playing video games, hanging out at the mall, or spraying on the internet...(whoops...!).

Quote: I spent just one week in Italy 5 years ago and saw what I would like to see happen in America. ACTIVITY and PRESERVATION of the NATURAL RESOURCES. Granted....Via Ferratas are a part of the history, but supply a wholesome (unlike x-box, nintendo) activity to all. What the HELL is wrong with putting a little bit of 'ferrata' in the rock to provide a wholesome, exciting experience for those not content with sitting eating a bag of Lays?

Be a short term cheap thrill that wouldn't last, and become mundane and boring pretty quickly. Just no challenge.

Quote: Ferrata Lipella. An access to Tofana di Rozes. The Austrians were bombing the hell out of the Italians. The Italians created a Via made of Ferrata to access a butress on the west side of the Tofana. Dug a 1/4 mile tunnel in the solid Dolomite and placed explosives at the end to bring them down.

Did that route last september (spent a week climbing outside Cortina) on a bad weather day. Pretty cool outing, given the history and position of the troops especially. Had it not been raining, would have much rather been climbing.

Quote: They provide recreation for everyone, history or not!

Given who we ran into on the route (rich American clients with Italian guides and tourists), I'm not sure everyone, especially kids and/or families, are taking advantage of them, which is a shame.

I Quote: Walked around Tre Cime di Lavaredo on a Sunday Afternoon. Moms and Dads with their young ones on a picnic as the snow flurries made us cover our faces. Did it stop them? Heck No!

Makes me wonder if the Euro demographic for such has changed a tad too. Just didn't see that many younger folk out and about over there. If we did, was American couples with their kids.

Quote: Why can't we get out here in Amarica and recreate!?

I think you're talking about kids these days? Maybe folks take less time for mentoring? Kids aren't into it? Dunno. Its an issue the whole outdoor industry is staring down. Good thing baby boomers are staying active into their later years.

Quote: Oh yeah! I forgot about the impact of some cables and bolts up high that will piss off those that would probably never have gone up there anyway?

Maybe if you could put on a magic cloak and pick up some power nuggets for your alien blaster...

I don't think a Via Ferrata park will save the non-outdoorsy American youth. They don't seem to even like getting outside to hike. Would be a short term fix for a much bigger problem. Basic physical fitness would be nice.

Seems like with the trail up Angel's Landing and the old Lady Mountain trail (not to mention a bazillion sports climbs around St. George), you already have some "iron ways" to choose from. Ditto them fixed anchor friendly canyoneering routes (ha ha).

And, what's wrong with kids appreciating the natural world, instead of going to Disneyland? Or feeling like they HAVE to go to Disneyland.

Cheers Bo!

-Brian in SLC

[Sombeech]

nice pics. I hope the one up here in Ogden gets a little more attention.

[Bo_Beck]

Brian in SLC wrote: Bo_Beck wrote: I saw the topic of Via Ferratas and the new emplacement in Ogden as a controversial Topic. Whats the Beef?

The whole Waterfalls Canyon development thing kinda reeks as a exclusive outdoor disneyland club for the well heeled, Bo. Note that in the plan is a gated community and high priced condo's, golf course, etc.

I guess I've jumped the Gun? I need to actually read the whole plan. Didn't know it was an exclusive sort of thing?

My beef with via ferratas is that it is a cheap thrill ride at the fair type thing that's not warrented especially on public land, especially given how kids these days, with a small amount of application, can out climb most of us older folks within a month or two of training.

If this sort of thing gets kids away from long sessions of 'Warcraft', it at least is a start to creating 'Endorfin Junkies' rather than 'Violence Mongers'.

Quote: what happened to recreation for the kids of these developments?

Can't compete with watching TV, playing video games, hanging out at the mall, or spraying on the internet...(whoops...!).

Gives them something to relate and talk to each other about though.

Quote: I spent just one week in Italy 5 years ago and saw what I would like to see happen in America. ACTIVITY and PRESERVATION of the NATURAL RESOURCES. Granted....Via Ferratas are a part of the history, but supply a wholesome (unlike x-box, nintendo) activity to all. What the HELL is wrong with putting a little bit of 'ferrata' in the rock to provide a wholesome, exciting experience for those not content with sitting eating a bag of Lays?

Be a short term cheap thrill that wouldn't last, and become mundane and boring pretty quickly. Just no challenge.

Challenge it seems is pretty relative. To some, getting out from in front of a computer screen or TV to get another soda pop or beer is a major undertaking!

Quote: Ferrata Lipella. An access to Tofana di Rozes. The Austrians were bombing the hell out of the Italians. The Italians created a Via made of Ferrata to access a butress on the west side of the Tofana. Dug a 1/4 mile tunnel in the solid Dolomite and placed explosives at the end to bring them down.

Did that route last september (spent a week climbing outside Cortina) on a bad weather day. Pretty cool outing, given the history and position of the troops especially. Had it not been raining, would have much rather been climbing.

It snowed on us during our climbing day, our 2 Ferrata days and our 2 hiking days. Oh well!

Quote: They provide recreation for everyone, history or not!

Given who we ran into on the route (rich American clients with Italian guides and tourists), I'm not sure everyone, especially kids and/or families, are taking advantage of them, which is a shame.

I was there in October....never saw American Tourists at all? Only Germans, Austrians and Italians.

I Quote: Walked around Tre Cime di Lavaredo on a Sunday Afternoon. Moms and Dads with their young ones on a picnic as the snow flurries made us cover our faces. Did it stop them? Heck No!

Makes me wonder if the Euro demographic for such has changed a tad too. Just didn't see that many younger folk out and about over there. If we did, was American couples with their kids.

Maybe so?

Quote: Why can't we get out here in Amarica and recreate!?

I think you're talking about kids these days? Maybe folks take less time for mentoring? Kids aren't into it? Dunno. Its an issue the whole outdoor industry is staring down. Good thing baby boomers are staying active into their later years.

Boycott Microsoft and Sony? Kinda like boycotting Exon! :haha:

Quote: Oh yeah! I forgot about the impact of some cables and bolts up high that will piss off those that would probably never have gone up there anyway?

Maybe if you could put on a magic cloak and pick up some power nuggets for your alien blaster...

I don't think a Via Ferrata park will save the non-outdoorsy American youth. They don't seem to even like getting outside to hike. Would be a short term fix for a much bigger problem. Basic physical fitness would be nice.

Takes Moms and Dads to instill healthy choices. I think it starts with the Baby Boomers.

Seems like with the trail up Angel's Landing and the old Lady Mountain trail (not to mention a bazillion sports climbs around St. George), you already have some "iron ways" to choose from. Ditto them fixed anchor friendly canyoneering routes (ha ha).

Canyoneering has stimulated an interest in youth. So has 'Sport Climbing'! Can we say "Hail to Hilti and Powers"!?

And, what's wrong with kids appreciating the natural world, instead of going to Disneyland? Or feeling like they HAVE to go to Disneyland.

It's a giant leap from Disneyland to Nature. Some stepping stones might keep 'em' from stumbling and breaking their desire and will?

Cheers Bo!

I best go look into the whole 'Ferrata' issue that confronts? Sorry for my hasty affront! :eek2:

-Brian in SLC

[Brian in SLC]

Bo_Beck wrote: Canyoneering has stimulated an interest in youth. So has 'Sport Climbing'! Can we say "Hail to Hilti and Powers"!?

It's a giant leap from Disneyland to Nature. Some stepping stones might keep 'em' from stumbling and breaking their desire and will?

Yeah, that's a good point too. Sports climbing and fixed anchored canyoneering (and maybe via ferrata) could be the gateway drug into real adventure, and, more outdoorsy stuff for folks.

Some "activation energy" might be required to get the reaction going, eh?

No wonder ATV/OHV stuff is popular... Be interesting to know the demographics of folks that get interested in the outdoors as an adreniline pursuit or throttle junkie, and then find hiking and backpacking, maybe climbing, backcountry skiing, etc, to their liking after that. We can only hope.

Ran into some geocacher folks in Montana last year. They were pretty heavy set. At the trailhead, we exchanged info on the area (Moose Creek trailhead, gateway to the Humbug Spires and specifically for us, the Wedge). They thought we were kinda nuts to be climbing. I told them I didn't care for the geocache thing, as leaving stuff in the forest to maybe never be retrieved at a later date just seemed like trash to me. But, they were so psyched, and, it provided the motivation for them to get out and hike, it made me reconsider the benifit of any type of activity that gets folks out. Nice bunch of folks, too. They had a pretty hard day (I knew from the descriptions they had where the cache was, 3 miles one way). But, there they were. And the more obscure, harder to get to and longer day type caches were what they were psyched about. Even geocachers have braggin' rights!

So, yeah, I see your point about folks just getting out, whatever the motivation.

See you on the hill sometime, Bo, we need to climb together. I got some idears for your area...something adventurous, close by, maybe in Arizona...(think...VRG and ridge climbs, speaking of the Dolomites!).

-Brian in SLC

[Scott P]

Not to be mean or anything, and I mean this in a kind way, but here is my own opinion:

I have to admit that I think putting Via Ferratas all over the place is not a good idea in my opinion. To me, it's the equivalent of doing to a mountain wall what the Navajos have done to Antelope Canyon.

Quote: PRESERVATION of the NATURAL RESOURCES

Really? How much wildlife did you see in the Dolomites?

Quote: I spent just one week in Italy 5 years ago and saw what I would like to see happen in America.

Like the Alps we can also put rotating restaraunts on some of the peaks to and a thousand more cable cars all over the place.

I don't understand why anyone whom is a climber could ever advocate something like a Via Ferrata. I think it's sad and equivalent to doing what they did to Antelope Canyon.

Quote: I forgot about the impact of some cables and bolts up high that will piss off those that would probably never have gone up there anyway?

Even if I couldn't climb a wall, some of us enjoy looking at mountain walls without seeing staircases and cables all over them. Whether or not I could climb the wall is irrevelant.

To sum it up, in my opinion, there are plenty of Via Ferratas, Iron Routes, Cable Routes, ski lifts, trams, and roads to the summits of many mountains in the USA, and we don't need to build them up every mountain or wall. :2thumbs:

[price1869]

Not meant to be mean, but . . . Scott Patterson wrote:

To sum it up, there are plenty of Via Ferratas, Iron Routes, Cable Routes, ski lifts, trams, and roads to the summits of many mountains in the USA, and we don't need to build them up every mountain or wall.

Most ridiculous statement of the year??

Scott, 99.9% of climbing involves small metal bolts, or no protection at all.

Very little wilderness area is accessible to ATVs.

It's okay to let other people enjoy doing different activities. I don't ride ATVs often, but they don't bother me. I haven't ever climbed Via Ferrata, but I plan on it. As I understand, it's a fairly legitimate form of climbing . . not exactly one for the overweight.

If you never want to be bothered by anyone ever again, the Brazilian rainforest is a nice option. Starting your posts off with "not meant to be mean but . . . " and then attacking what everyone else enjoys is not necessarily nice.

[Scott P]

Quote: Scott, 99.9% of climbing involves small metal bolts, or no protection at all.

I said nothing about bolts. I know Brian (above) is pro-bolt for both climbing and canyoneering, but doesn't seem to be too excited about a bunch of Via Ferrata either.

Also, I doubt that 99.9% of climbing is done with bolts or no protection. That's BS. Trad, ice, glacier mountaineering, etc. is still climbing and makes up more than the 0.1% of climbing that you imply.

Quote: Very little wilderness area is accessible to ATVs.

What does that have to do with Via Ferratas? Would you like to see ATV tracks everywhere as well.

Quote: I haven't ever climbed Via Ferrata, but I plan on it

That's fine, but I was refering to building them up a bunch of walls/routes like is done in Dolomites and what Bo is refering to(??). Personally, I feel we already have enough fixed line routes around and don't need hundreds more. Do you realize that in the area Bo is refering to and wants to see more of happen to the US, there are no less than 80 via Ferrata in a small area?

If you want to visit routes that are already fixed or modified (by cable, ladder, steps, etc), there are plenty already available.

You go canyoneering. Would you like to see dozens or hundreds of canyons go the way of Antelope?

Quote: It's okay to let other people enjoy doing different activities.

As long as they don't ruin it for eveyone else, that is fine with me. :2thumbs: You don't have to destroy something to have fun.

A few via Ferrata are fine, but how many is enough. They do attract crowds. Shouldn't there be some areas one could go without seeing works of man?

[Sombeech]

Scott Patterson wrote: As long as they don't ruin it for eveyone else, that is fine with me.

Since they don't ruin it for everyone else, I guess we all support via ferratas now.

[price1869]

Scott Patterson wrote: Quote: Scott, 99.9% of climbing involves small metal bolts, or no protection at all.

I said nothing about bolts. I know Brian (above) is pro-bolt for both climbing and canyoneering, but doesn't seem to be too excited about a bunch of Via Ferrata either.

Also, I doubt that 99.9% of climbing is done with bolts or no protection. That's BS. Trad, ice, glacier mountaineering, etc. is still climbing and makes up more than the 0.1% of climbing that you imply.

You got me there, I meant to say "fixed protection".

[Brian in SLC]

Scott Patterson wrote: Quote: Scott, 99.9% of climbing involves small metal bolts, or no protection at all.

I said nothing about bolts. I know Brian (above) is pro-bolt for both climbing and canyoneering, but doesn't seem to be too excited about a bunch of Via Ferrata either.

Also, I doubt that 99.9% of climbing is done with bolts or no protection. That's BS. Trad, ice, glacier mountaineering, etc. is still climbing and makes up more than the 0.1% of climbing that you imply.

Too simplistic, perhaps. I'm pro fixed anchors where appropriate.

I'm mostly a trad type climber. Not sure exact numbers, but, last count was over 120 pitches this year, and, my bet is less than 5% is sport climbing. That's not to say that fixed anchors at the top of trad routes weren't used (and usually appreciated), though.

And...I'd be hugely disappointed to see Via Ferrata become popular here, and would have an especially hard time with them on public land. I've done one in Europe, and, understand some of the history of them, but, they're also very controversial in some locations over there as well. Where they aren't historical, and, are being installed to increase tourism especially.

Fixed anchor climbing percentages? Hard to put a number on. Tons of folks sports climb, but, a ton of folk also peak bag too, without any fixed anchors, for miles at a time. Look how popular Hood is, or Rainier, for instance.

Not to speak for Bo, but, my guess is the gist of his point was that anything to get kids and folks outside for any recreation would be good at this point. Part of me agrees, but, part of me wishes that folks would appreciate a more natural, less adreniline theme park-esque type form of recreation. Ie, not sport rappelling, but, learning how to climb and then rappel like a climber would. Ie, because the position demands it, but, not as a cheap thrill. Via Ferratas seem more like a cheap thrill.

Was funny, I went to the Odgen climbing festival which had some component of it related to the Mahlans area Via Ferrata. One of the shiny, pro festival folks was all bubbly about trying the Via Ferrata and asked me if I couldn't just wait to do it. Didn't want to totally kill her psyche, but, I tried to explain that most climbers absolutely do not like a Via Ferrata, but instead prefer to just rock climb. As a non climber, I'm not sure she understood completely, but, tried to. Was a quasi weird conversation and I'm not sure either one of us understood each other.

Cheers,

-Brian in SLC

[price1869]

Brian in SLC wrote: Via Ferratas seem more like a cheap thrill.

Cheers,

-Brian in SLC

All depends on how you ride the ride.

I climb to push myself, my physical abilities, my mental aptitude. I don't climb for adreneline. Same goes for Mt. Biking, Canyoneering, etc. etc.

People enjoy things in different ways. I don't think that there should be many VFs, but there should be a few, and I'm not going to dictate how someone has to enjoy them.

I don't watch to make sure that everyone that has a handicap sticker in his car is handicapped to the extent that I think he should be. I'm fine with handicap parking places.

We just need to keep in mind that VF is not going to overrun all of the climbing in the West, Global warming isn't going to destroy the planet, and we ourselves are the only people that keep us from enjoying life.


Now - in an attempt to make a related statement(perhaps an example of what I mean), but not shift the topic too much: When we were coming down from Morning Glory Arch, I checked the register. The last people to sign before us complained about people "climbing" on the arch. Obviously they misunderstood rappelling, but that's not the point. They went on for 4 lines about how their trip had been ruined by the other people at the arch.

I just refuse to allow my trips to be ruined because I find some trash, hear some noise, come accross a new bolt, etc. The last line in the register said "Beautiful arch, horrible people." I guess that makes me horrible.

[Scott P]

Quote: I don't think that there should be many VFs, but there should be a few

But price, there are already more than a few modified routes out there. Dozens and dozens of them. Maybe only a few are true Via Ferrata, but plently of modified routes.

Quote: I'm mostly a trad type climber. Not sure exact numbers, but, last count was over 120 pitches this year, and, my bet is less than 5% is sport climbing. That's not to say that fixed anchors at the top of trad routes weren't used (and usually appreciated), though.

Yes, thanks for more detail.

Quote: And...I'd be hugely disappointed to see Via Ferrata become popular here, and would have an especially hard time with them on public land.

Me too, and I agree. On private land they are fine I think.

Quote: I've done one in Europe, and, understand some of the history of them, but, they're also very controversial in some locations over there as well.

Over here, there was a time when such modifications was encouraged (not quite the same as the via Ferrata, but not that different). You mentioned Angels Landing which is an iron route of sorts. Anyway, I’m sure you are familiar with the old Cables Route on Longs. Before 1973 (I think) fixed cables were encouraged, but were taken down by the NPS. In California they still use cables on Half Dome.

Anyway, I’ve done several Iron routes in other parts of the world. My opinion is that although there are not that many Via Ferrata in the USA, there are plenty of modified routes already in place. The BLM and NPS already has hundreds of miles of modified trails with things such as ladders, stairs, moki steps, fixed lines, etc. Why not just use those ones?

There are even several historic cable, moki step, and ladder routes, but some of those will deteriorate eventually. Still some are still secure.

I’m not against keeping modified routes; I just don’t like the idea of creating a bunch of new ones. As said there are already hundreds of miles of trails or routes in the area that have ladders, stairs, moki steps, fixed lines, etc. In my opinion there are enough for now.

Quote: Look how popular Hood is, or Rainier, for instance.

Yes, and things like snow pickets and other snow protection are removed so it’s a different situation than say a via ferratta.

Quote: Not to speak for Bo, but, my guess is the gist of his point was that anything to get kids and folks outside for any recreation would be good at this point.

I used to be a paid backpacking guide for the boyscouts. I was always told my first priority was safety and second to teach “Leave no Trace” prinicples. I think these are good concepts to live and teach. I think it is good that people get out, and very often, but I also think that recreation can be done to minimise impact whenever possible.

I don't know why saying that I think the leave no trace principles equal an attack on everyone else (as price seems to imply).

Quote: Via Ferratas seem more like a cheap thrill.

I agree. It different from taking time to learn step by step until one can climb one of these walls in trad style. I’m not a great climber (In fact I’m pretty bad), but I don’t particularly want to see a bunch of via Ferrata just so I can get somewhere faster. I like looking up at walls I can't climb and don't feel the need that I have to modify and climb everything.

[Sombeech]

Brian in SLC wrote: One of the shiny, pro festival folks was all bubbly about trying the Via Ferrata and asked me if I couldn't just wait to do it. Didn't want to totally kill her psyche, but, I tried to explain that most climbers absolutely do not like a Via Ferrata, but instead prefer to just rock climb.

In those situations, I just say "I sure am". Sometimes it's better to be nice to people than to educate them of their stupid ways.

Sounds like a bunch of elitists again hording all of the climbing fun to only the highly skilled.

I'll probably never do either, but whenever there is controversy over making something easier, you know who started it.

[tanya]

Scott Patterson wrote: Quote: Scott, 99.9% of climbing involves small metal bolts, or no protection at all.




:eek2: