Bogley

[Brian in SLC]

Scott Patterson wrote: Quote: My guess is less than 1% of folks build or use a snow cave or igloo on Denali.

My mistake and you are right and I should have said snow wall. How about this: Most people use a snow wall on Denali. True or false?

100% true! Folks that don't lose their tents.

I find a double wall, well spaced and in a tear drop shape, with the walls not too high, and plenty of room to walk around the tent and shovel, works best. A small wall out front bucking the wind works very well. Collects all the blowing snow before it hits home. Handy.

Quote: That wasn't my point though, I was just pointing out that Denali and Utah are completely different, and so is the snow. Wouldn't you agree?

Not really. They get similar snow, in terms of the type of snow that falls. I've skied Utah powder on Denali, for example (can you say, "whoo hoo!"). I'd say every type of snow I've seen in Utah, I've seen on Denali or in the AK range. What Utah doesn't get is sustained high winds that blows the snow off to reveal bare, rock hard, glacier ice...(ok, maybe some times).

Dry, wet, with wind, wind affected, cold then warm, warm then cold, sustained exposure to cold, clear skies, Utah and AK see both.

See Tremper's book Staying Alive in Avalanche Terrain for example. Bruce is from Montana, spent a significant time in AK, and has been here in Utah for a long while. He doesn't really differentiate between the different areas having different snow. Sure, the snowpack can behave in a more typical way depending on location. But, you should anticipate all types of snow conditions no matter the location.

Quote: 9800 isn't very high, but in you opinion what would it be at 11,000 feet?

It is for the central Wasatch. There's only a few, select locations above 11k here, and, most folks wouldn't put in a camp there.

Quote: I assume way more than it would take to pitch the tent. What month did they start it?

Of course it takes longer, which is one of the downsides to building one in the first place. They start it in "early season". Ie, when there's enough snow to ski.

Ran into a gal a couple years ago that lived the entire ski season in a snow cave. Saved on rent! Hard corp!

Quote: You may have done more many winter ascents than me, and are obviously more experienced, but I have done 145 in Utah and Colorado and I can say that I've seen many people try and dig snow caves and they couldn't pack them on several occasions. Last time was on Holy Cross last January at 11,300 feet or so. If you can pack a cave in such conditions, I will believe you, but most people can't.

Nah, you probably have bagged way more peaks than I in the winter (cool you know the number!). Way more. I mostly ice climb and ski non summit type things, and don't winter camp that much (no reason to here, access for day trips is way too easy).

Quote: Regardless if you could pack a cave, I still think it is not worth the trouble in December or January, at least at where the snow is extra powdery.

Sure, harder to do with less than optimal snow. Takes a ton of time. Time better spent skiing, enjoying the scenery, hiking, climbing, quaiffing a beverage, quickly setting up a tent, or hiking back to the car.

Quote: I don't know if it is a good idea to ditch the tent in stormy conditions in powdery conditions because you think you can just dig a snowcave.

The choice may not be yours! Ha ha. When your tent collapses from snow load, or, it schreds and blows away in the wind, then you'll take whatever shelter you can get. Seen a number of these kinds of data points...some personal...(lost my tent in a storm on Mount Logan in Canada).

Quote: Squeezing between boulders or at low altitudes, under trees is a more viable alternative when the snow is extra powdery.

Sure. So's a tent, if you have one. If you don't, you might need a snow cave to stay warm enough to survive the night, depending on your situation.

Quote: One reason that the others decided to ditch the Holy Cross ascent last January was because we had ditched the tents. After we discovered the shortage of tents (none) and with a huge storm due to arrive, most people wanted to turn back. At first someone thought we could dig a snow cave. It was tried, but quickly abandoned.

How's that go? Learn to run away and live to climb another day?

Why folks even bother to go out and test their mettle on bad weather days in the winter is beyond me. Goes for pushing on in bad conditions, too (snowshoers on Nebo comes to mind).

Quote: Some of us had bivi sacks and my idea was that we could just squeeze between the boulders and be perfectly safe, but due to this and other reasons I was outvoted and we turned back. If we could have dug a snow cave in the powder, I bet we would have been successful on the climb and no one would have giving it a second thought

"Huge storm coming in". Hmmm. That's a tough roll of the dice. I'd have you ask my friend John, who was similarly equiped, but, he's dead. He lost. Game over for him. Wife and kids at home. Sound familiar?

Quote: Either way, my advice is still the same. At high altitudes (and sometimes lower), in Utah, and in December and January, bring a tent or bivi sack. You cannot always build a snow cave or igloo. Maybe Brian can, but I can’t. Niether could the Himalayan (Broad Peak, K2, Cho Oyu, Everest, Ama Dablam, etc.) vetran that was with us.
I agree that snowcaves and igloos would work in many situation, but I don't think you can count on them always working well, and especially in parts of Utah durinjg certain parts of the year.

Totally agree, Scott. Look at the cutting edge folks out there climbing. They take tents (House and Anderson on Nanga Parbat for instance). They also bail quickly if lightly equiped, see especially House's routes in the AK range (Gift, Slovak Route).

Its a good skill to have, being able to build a snowcave or igloo. But, I dont' think its a good option if you can get to the car before a storm hits.

Scott, I worry about you and your ilk. Take a good avalanche class. I really should too, but, I keep kidding myself that I know something and I'm conservative (spend most my winter backcountry skiing). Excuses excuses...

That high elevation Colorado snowpack scares the crap out of me. Its a killer. Please be careful.

-Brian in SLC

[Scott P]

Quote: It is for the central Wasatch. There's only a few, select locations above 11k here, and, most folks wouldn't put in a camp there.


If you ever traverse something like the Timp Ridge, American Fork Canon to Provo Canyon, you just might. Agreed that 99% of people won’t though. However, in the Uintas, you will definately spend many nights above 11K if you plan on climbing many of the higher peaks.

Quote: Takes a ton of time. Time better spent skiing, enjoying the scenery, hiking, climbing, quaiffing a beverage, quickly setting up a tent, or hiking back to the car.

Agree.

Quote: The choice may not be yours! Ha ha. When your tent collapses from snow load, or, it schreds and blows away in the wind, then you'll take whatever shelter you can get.

Agreed, but I would not leave the tent home in hopes that you could just dig a snow ave, at least in powdery conditions.

Quote: Why folks even bother to go out and test their mettle on bad weather days in the winter is beyond me.

I agree in many situations, and here’s where the group was split on what to do. A storm was coming and I didn’t perceive it as a real danger in this situation. Most situations yes. My idea was that we would be off the summit before the weather turned bad, and that if climbing back up to Halfmoon Pass was at all dangerous (which it would be if it snowed), we would just take the long way down by following Cross Creek all the way down to the highway. It would be a mostly flat 20+ mile grueling snow slog through thick timber and a real pain, but flat snow slogs are typically not dangerous, even during and after snowstorms, unless they cross avy paths. Our route would have been heavily timbered and doesn't cross any slide paths.

" Quote: Huge storm coming in". Hmmm. That's a tough roll of the dice. I'd have you ask my friend John, who was similarly equiped, but, he's dead. He lost. Game over for him. Wife and kids at home. Sound familiar?

See above. I guess huge may be an exaggeration, and it snowed a foot in Vail, but there was a safe (but pain in the butt) escape route and we had 5 days of food available.

I think we could have spent a day trying for it, but with no shame in turning back if we couldn't. I didn't think we did bad by turning back, but thought we didn't have to turn back so early.

Quote: Scott, I worry about you and your ilk. Take a good avalanche class. I really should too, but, I keep kidding myself that I know something and I'm conservative (spend most my winter backcountry skiing). Excuses excuses...

I am a conservative too, at least now. Maybe not 10-15 years ago, but much has been learned by now. Yes, I have taken avy classes, and luckily I haven't had the need to use it and hope it stays that way.

Believe it or not, many of the 14ers and other peaks have routes that are completely free from avalanches. Especially true of exposed ridges at a low angle. Even the highest peak in Colorado has zero avalanche danger as long as you stay on route. This is not true in other ranges though, such as the Elk Range, San Juans, or Wasatch. Peaks like Timpanogos or Maroon Bells don’t seem to have a very safe winter route up and all routes are risky. Peaks like Elbert and Massive have safe routes, but you have to watch out for the wind. I can glady say that any time we have run into avy danger in CO, which isn't too often because we always stick to ridge routes, we have turned back. Every time.

On the other hand, I have seen others continue up when I or we turned back. If it is stormy on a ridge, you can still get off route and in trouble if you get off route. Even on Mount Elbert which has a safe route up.