Bogley

[tanya]

Win wrote: Nice TR on going to Toroweap. I was there a month ago and went out thru St George and back thru East Zion. Lots of driving but well worth it. That Lava Falls hike is just too demanding for this old man! Sorry to hear it wasn't a favorite, seems like alot of work.


My one hiking trip through Lava Falls was a nightmare. We camped out at Toroweap which was fantastic and the next morning we started down the lava rock on the trail. All was okay until we were near the bottom and I got stomach flu or something. It was horrible. This was a FREEZING cold December day at the bottom of the Grand Canyon. We started up, but it was getting late since I was going so slow. We had an hour of day light left at best. I did not really care at this point I was just trudging up the hillside slowly just thinking how sick I felt, but the thought of spending the night on the sharp, cold lava rocks did not thrill me. It was too rough a trail to try and make our way in the dark. I kept trudging up the trail and my partner took off to try and find a better way. Next thing I know he is hollering from the top and running down a hillside telling me to go that way. We made it to the top before dark. Whew! Anyway ---- I might do it again someday, but it will be a while!

Has eveyone done the Namoweap Petroglyph site? Alot of neat rock art and a good side trip from a day at Toroweap.


Not me! Where is it? I might run out there this weekend.

Thanks for the gear tips, I was considering that tent, like the idea of it being free standing. I'm not sure about a tent heater, I think I'd over sleep, too.

I've hiked out Coal Pits and Scoggins and know what you mean about mud and dried footsteps. That area took a beating during that deluge a month or so ago. I like the Dalton wash hike too this time of year.

I have not done Huber yet. Have you?

I've been to the Outdoor Outlet and now will make sure to go back. Maybe even this afternoon. Thanks for the tip.

:five:


Win

[Win]

No wonder you didn't enjoy Lava Falls! I've not done Huber Wash or the Chinle Trl, on my list for this Winter.

Namoweap is about 15 miles from Toroweap off Mt Trumbull Rd. If you're
coming out of Fredonia you would turn towards Mt Trumbull and go in about three miles, it is signed for the left to the Petroglyphs (BLM 1028), go in a mile or so and make a left to the parking area. You just walk down the old wagon rd. until you reach the rocks to your left. The art is all over the rocks, I think there are over 1000 petroglyphs in this canyon. They call it Billy Goat Canyon because of all the goat drawings.
Here's a link to some of my pictures, taken in April 2006.

http://www.fototime.com/ftweb/bin/ft.dll/pictures?userid={8012E0D2-C758-4030-9867-768BBDEC87DE}

Win

[tanya]

Thanks for the directions and what outstanding photos you have in your albums. :2thumbs:

[neena_jud]

Although you have probably made your decision, I thought I would weigh in:
REI does have good tents. My son has a two person tent that we considered borrowing for our trip starting tomorrow. But since we will be car camping some, and backpacking some, we opted for our own tent which is a three person from Mountain Hardware.
I agree that good ventilation areas are important. We are from Ohio, and camp in Kentucky frequently. Rain is a part of life around here. So is dew in the morning. Good ventilation areas reduces the amount of dew that forms on the inside of your tent.
As far as sleeping bags go: we have 0 degree rated down bags - lighter weight than synthetic bags, and we skip the heater. Just zip up the bags and snuggle.
We also have full size thermarest pads. It seems excessive for backpacking, but our bones need the padding. It also insulates against your body heat leaking into the ground (rock I presume). When car camping we usually bring a pair of old ensolite pads to put under the thermarest.
But that's just us. I can't imagine giving up sleeping in a tent in the middle of nowhere, so we might just have to figure out how to add more padding as time goes on.
Enjoy!

[moabfool]

neena_jud wrote:
We also have full size thermarest pads. It seems excessive for backpacking, but our bones need the padding. It also insulates against your body heat leaking into the ground (rock I presume).

I just bought a new pad and I love it. It's the Big Agnes Air Core pad. It's 2.5" X 20" X 76", although there are shorter options. It's not self-inflating, but the comfort more than compensates for that. It's 2oz heavier than the Therm-A-Rest ProLite 4 regular (1.5" X 20" X 72") but the mummy style of the Air Core is lighter than the Therm-A-Rest. It's as comfortable as my Princess Pad and much lighter. The princess pad is a twin bed-sized piece of 3" thick foam I take car camping. I put it on top of my cot and I sleep better than I do at home. The Princes Pad got its name the first time I took it on a trip. "Gosh princess! Maybe we'll put a pea under that thing to see if you can feel it." Needless to say I take the abuse with a smile.

I wouldn't use either a Therm-A-Rest or the Big Agnes for winter camping, at least not directly on the snow. My Therm-A-Rest loses all pressure when cold (see Boyle's Law for the particulars on the subject) and I end up with essentially nothing under me. I suspect my Big Agnes will do the same, although it's rated to +15 deg F. For winter camping I picked a piece of closed cell foam at Smith 'n Edwards (a giant surplus/camping store in Utah) for $8. It was 1/2" X 40" X 84" long. I just cut it in half the long way and now I have two 1/2" thick X 76" long pads that weigh next to nothing (with some nice, tough foam left over for some backpack straps). Not necessarily an option in Ohio, but it works for people on the Wasatch Front. Some ensolite would work well too or a cheapie blue pad from Wal-Mart.

[Scott Card]

For a few more bucks, they have these new down filled air pads. I got one for my Heaps Canyon trip and you use the stuff sac to inflate the thing (ya don't want moisture in the down) I think that thing is rated at about -15 degrees and has an advertised R value of 9 or some such thing. It is pricey but very warm and comfortable, light and fairly compact. The stuff sac even has some padding in it to be sued as a pillow. I can't remember the brand but if anyone is interested I will check when I get home and post tomorrow.

[moabfool]

Scott Card wrote: For a few more bucks, they have these new down filled air pads.

I had my eye on those. I wasn't in the mood to drop that much coin but they did look very nice. Maybe in a few years. I guess the down keeps the air from circulating, keeping ol' Boyle and his law at bay. I'm amazed how light and compact my Big Ag is. It's taken the weight and the bulk of my overnight pack down a lot. The REI Sub Kilo I bought helps too.

[Scott Card]

My canyoneering partners asked me about my pad and I actually told them not to buy one but rather to get a big agnes. I am not a big snow camper any more but I tend to still be in the desert in the winter. The down filled pad is a luxury item and too spendy even for me. I just happened to score one :nod: but I must say, the thing was very warm and comfortable.

[Cirrus2000]

Scott Card wrote: ... The stuff sac even has some padding in it to be sued as a pillow...

Ummmm, lawyer? :haha:

[stefan]

:lol8:

(generalized) freudian slip

[Win]

Just wanted to thank everyone for their input. I have been busy on line spending my hard earned money. I've taken most of your advise and it's looking good. So far:

REI Half Dome tent: Like that it's freestanding, easy to assemble.
Coleman 25 Deg Ash Canyon bag. Heavy as all get out. Wouldn't want to pack this thing! Should be nice and comfy by the Jeep.
Big Agnes 15 degree pad. I want to get a Thermarest, too. Thinking Base Camp.

On this weeks agenda: Stove & Lantern. Going with Coleman for the car camp thing.

Win

[Alex]

Gear online shopping is half the fun of going camping! :2thumbs:

[moabfool]

Big Agnes has come through again. I went down to The Swell over the weekend to do Forgotten Canyon. I slept on my Big Agnes in sub-freezing temps and it didn't lose any pressure. I didn't have a piece of foam under me or anything. I'd have been right down on the rocks on my Therm-A-Rest.

I'll post a TR when I get some time and/or get the internet at home.

[Scott Card]

Cirrus2000 wrote: Scott Card wrote: ... The stuff sac even has some padding in it to be sued as a pillow...

Ummmm, lawyer? :haha:

Opps, busted again. Maybe that Freud fellow had something there. :haha:

By the way, my pad was really nice in Heaps. Very warm and soft.

[mroy]

I LOVE my big agnes pad. Everyone I know who used to use thermarests and have tried big agnes' don't ever go back. I may be totally burned out at the end of a long day backpacking, and I might have to do a little more puffing to get the big agnes inflated, but the great sleep is worth it. I question the worth of having the down insulation in the pad though because blowing it up always introduces moisture inside, and the down is just going to be more surface area for the moisture to stick to and down is pretty worthless when it's wet. It might take a while to get to that point, but if that does happen, then what? Plus if you're not using a big agnes sleeping bag with the pad to complete the system then you already have some mashed up insulation between you and the pad. Anyone seen any real test data to support the down in the inflatable pad?

Cool thing I found out when I was looking for a hole (my own fault for laying on it on bare slickrock last week in the grand canyon) I held my pad up to the setting sun to shake some water I was using to find the hold off of it, and I could see that tiny hole no problem. Doing that will save so much trouble if/when I get another hole. I've slept on it about 30 times and this is the first one I've gotten.

The north rim campground is free again this winter. It got down to 14 degrees when I spent the night there on Oct 22. The backcountry office on the north rim closes today. The Kaibab Lodge just outside the park remains open through the winter. If the highway is closed you can always try one of the dirt roads just outside Fredonia that go to the more western portions of the park since portions of that area are at lower elevations.