Bogley

[caverspencer]

here is a recent post from another forum. names have been modified since I have not asked permission to post the letter here :-)




Just FYI,

(name withheld) and I went to (cave name witheld) today and had a great time. We saw most
of the cave and were impressed again at the decorations and the
marvelous pits. Screaming Skull Falls is still in good shape and most of the
skulls and bones are still there. We did not see any major damage to the
cave from previous trips. The rope up the climb and down the final pits
is there and in good shape. there is a knot about half way down tying
off a wear spot (you probably already knew that). The register however
was not in good shape. The tube itself is ok but the inside materials
were shredded. It appeared to be on purpous. After the shredding,
everything was wadded up and dumped into the bottom of the tube. The tube was
very wet inside. There was only one readable note (see included
picture. The one discouraging thing we noted was that some one has dumped a
large amount of spent carbide on the floor of the final pit. There was
also the remains of a flashlight broken all over on the floor of the
final
pit. We also noted that someone had left a spent light stick and
several fire hose rope pads in two places in the cave where they are
useless. The bolt that was placed years ago with the webbing loop part way
down the first drop is about ready to pull out. It is also rusted badly.

Just one more note. There are some really tiny articulated skelletons
in this cave. They must be baby mice.

--
Caver (name witheld)





Now on to my breif rant...

If you guys want to know about the caves and have our trust, then tearing up registers and dumping carbide in caves will not help with your cause....
niether will leaving behind busted flashlights....
neither will leaving behind light sticks....
you get my point.



End rant....

.... for now

[Sombeech]

caverspencer wrote: here is a recent post from another forum. names have been modified since I have not asked permission to post the letter here :-)




Just FYI,

(name withheld) and I went to (cave name witheld) today and had a great time. We saw most
of the cave and were impressed again at the decorations and the
marvelous pits. Screaming Skull Falls is still in good shape and most of the
skulls and bones are still there. We did not see any major damage to the
cave from previous trips. The rope up the climb and down the final pits
is there and in good shape. there is a knot about half way down tying
off a wear spot (you probably already knew that). The register however
was not in good shape. The tube itself is ok but the inside materials
were shredded. It appeared to be on purpous. After the shredding,
everything was wadded up and dumped into the bottom of the tube. The tube was
very wet inside. There was only one readable note (see included
picture. The one discouraging thing we noted was that some one has dumped a
large amount of spent carbide on the floor of the final pit. There was
also the remains of a flashlight broken all over on the floor of the
final
pit. We also noted that someone had left a spent light stick and
several fire hose rope pads in two places in the cave where they are
useless. The bolt that was placed years ago with the webbing loop part way
down the first drop is about ready to pull out. It is also rusted badly.

Just one more note. There are some really tiny articulated skelletons
in this cave. They must be baby mice.

--
Caver (name witheld)





Now on to my breif rant...

If you guys want to know about the caves and have our trust, then tearing up registers and dumping carbide in caves will not help with your cause....
niether will leaving behind busted flashlights....
neither will leaving behind light sticks....
you get my point.

The cave mentioned has been discussed here on this forum and If I were to point fingers it would be at an individual here. Since I am not active in the grottos much anymore I wont be naming any names. but if you want to earn trust you have to learn and live the ethics involved!!!!!!!!!!

End rant....

.... for now




So, the name of the cave was mentioned here, making it more publicly known? I'm not sure that's the cause of vandalism.

If I go to a cool place, I might mention the name to somebody. But giving detailed directions is the next step, along with a detailed description of what to expect.

On the other hand, if somebody wants to find a new cave in the area, they can just ask the locals, and easily find the place to go. In my opinion, web forums are among the last places that most people look for secret information. The locals will sometimes spill their guts, I've experienced this many times.

[caverspencer]

Fortunately the "locals" only know so much.... The best caves have been discovered by cavers and only cavers know of the location. hence the reason they are still the "best" caves.


I never said it was because the name was mentioned here.

There have been at least a couple of rescues of very experienced climbers from the cave. Fortunately no one has been seriously hurt, the problem has lied in people not knowing how to get back out, or thinking they could do it with make shift ascending systems.

If your going to go caving save yourself the trouble and do it right, cavers don't bite, we welcome people to come survey virgin pristine cave with us. there is nothing better than the mystery of a new cave that has never had a human footprint in it before.

[Udink]

Sombeech wrote: So, the name of the cave was mentioned here, making it more publicly known? I'm not sure that's the cause of vandalism.
I'd have to agree with Sombeech. Spencer, you're saying that this cave was a huge secret everywhere EXCEPT here on uutah.com? That seems like a bit of a stretch.

caverspencer wrote: dumping carbide in caves
What is carbide? Do you mean brass?

[caverspencer]

Yes the cave is well known, I never said it wasnt.!! IF it wasnt well known we wouldnt be here having this converstation about it!

Why is everything a debate with you guys???



Carbide - "calcium carbide Ca2C, it reacts with water to form the gas acetylene used as a lighting source by cavers and miners. "


from http://www.caves.org/member/mfraley/
"Welcome to The Carbide Caver. Through the years, the carbide caplamp has been known as a symbol of caving, and until recent years, it was the most popular form of underground lighting by far. However, carbide caplamps are becoming less and less frequently seen underground. Production has dropped enough that new lamps have almost disapeared from the caving market. This website was designed to help newer cavers get introduced to the world of carbide caving. However, this site will give little attention to belt-generator styles of acetylene "ceiling burners" since they are still widely produced and easily obtainable. The Carbide Caver will help you find a lamp, help determine a reasonable price, tell you where to find repair parts, and how to keep the lamp operational. Credits are given to all non-original graphics, and a general bibliography is provided. All original graphics are by Kara Hodge. "

[Udink]

caverspencer wrote: Yes the cave is well known, I never said it wasnt.!! All I said I suspect it was people form this forum that did the damage. I am surprised you are not jumping down my throat for accusing people here.
Actually, the purpose of my post was to point out how ridiculous it seems to me that you are accusing somebody on this board of committing the vandalism, when in fact it could have been any old random Joe Blow. Unless uutah.com is the only place where somebody can find info about this cave, your accusation seems way out of line. If the cave is well-known, why do you suspect somebody from this forum?

caverspencer wrote: Why is everything a debate with you guys???
The only reason I jumped in and replied is because of your use of "you guys" in your first post. You sounded as though you were chastising the entire forum, when in fact you think you have a beef with just one individual.

[James_B_Wads2000]

caverspencer wrote: Why is everything a debate with you guys???

Why are you so abrasive every time you post? I don’t get you caverspencer, the only time you post here is to rant.

But I see what you’re saying, last time I went to Crystal Ball Cave there was pennies inside one of the pool. When I went to Warm Springs there was beer bottles, liquor bottles, old towels and swimming suits on the ground. When I went to Ibapah there was a fire pit filled with trash. Gatorade bottles everywhere in Havasupai, rope grooves and huge piles of webbing in canyons in Zion, ATV tracks in the wilderness study areas on Notch Peak, dog shit all over the trails in Upper Millcreek, tons of bike track grooves and trail erosion on the Wasatch Crest Trail, horse shit all over the trails to Kings Peak and Antelope Island. Are you starting to get a picture here?

It has been said many times on this forum and many other places. There are always bad apples in the bunch. People who just don’t care as much as you do to keep places clean and pristine. Now I don’t cave a lot, more like hardly ever, but I do spend a fair amount of time in the outdoors and I see this everywhere I go, across all sports and all cross-sections of the outdoor community.

So what I don’t get is why you would be shocked that this goes on in the caving community to? I doesn’t seem like that much of a stretch that there would be inconsiderate cavers as well.

James

[caverspencer]

YOu are exactly right there are cavers that are morons too.... Oops did I say that outloud!

On one of my very first caving trips I learned just how hyporcrytical some cavers are. We came out of the cave and were changing and next thing I know one of the guys was throwing dead batteries in the bushes and cigarett butts on the ground. He heard it from all of us about why would he think that was ok. Pretty stupid, he had the knowledge to bring all the garbage out of the cave, but then to chuck it in the bushes, aahhh that really got to me.


To Udink, I dont have a problem with you. Why do you think everything I say is targeted at you??

Come on guys, cant we all just get along...


My point of the post was as an example of why cavers are so secretive. Caves are very senistive environments. If somoen is willing to do it right they will know of more caves than they can visit.

[Udink]

caverspencer wrote: To Udink, I dont have a problem with you. Why do you think everything I say is targeted at you??
I never once thought you were targeting me specifically, but I just can't figure out why you think somebody from this forum was responsible for the vandalism when the cave is well-known to a lot of people outside of this forum.

caverspencer wrote: My point of the post was as an example of why cavers are so secretive. Caves are very senistive environments. If somoen is willing to do it right they will know of more caves than they can visit.
I see your point and I agree with your sentiments, but I just can't figure out why the accusatory tone is warranted. All I wanna know is why you're blaming someone from here, when it could have been anyone. If you know who it is, just bring it up with them instead of blasting the entire forum with it.

[caverspencer]

Does anyone on this fourm even know what cave I am refferring to???

[Scott P]

Keeping caves a secret is warranted, I would think. Although I don't understand it, every wild (ie non tour grouped) cave that has been well known to the public has been valadalized it seems. Every single one that I'm aware of. No exceptions. It's strange, but true. I never have figured out why.

Medussa used to be awesome (my dad was first to explore it), now it is completely wrecked. Unfortunately, I never got to see it before it was wrecked. :evil:

[scoutabout]

caverspencer wrote: Fortunately the "locals" only know so much.... The best caves have been discovered by cavers and only cavers know of the location. hence the reason they are still the "best" caves.


Haha! This is hilarious. I know some "locals" in some areas that have kept caves secret from serious "cavers" to AVOID the destruction and overuse caused by recreational cavers. I think it's the other way around. The "locals" usually know much more than you do.

[KillEmAll]

caverspencer wrote: If I were to point fingers it would be at an individual here.

Sorry, it was me. I also took a monster dump down there that you failed to mention. But I did pack my tp out with me. :mrgreen:

[Iceaxe]

caverspencer wrote: The cave mentioned has been discussed here on this forum and If I were to point fingers it would be at an individual here.

Don't be a douche..... cause as it stands right now you have just pointed a finger at every member of this forum..... if ya have proof then man up and educate the poor soul involved.....

.... but don't bring that whining secret shit around here..... cause I'm not buying it.... I've played the secret games for years and I have discovered a few things to be true....

1. The only way three people can keep a secret is if two of them are dead.

2. There is no secert cave, canyon, yada, yada that you can't get if you really want it.....

3. Since the advent of the internet secrets are now measured in dog years.

4. No such thing as a gated cave if you own a come-a-long or a port-a-power :2thumbs:

now I will climb off my soap box

:five:

[tanya]

~pout~ I did not do it!!! :ne_nau: