Bogley

accadacca · Joined: 02 Dec 2004 Posts: 7870 Location: On Your Screen

This is really sad and it happens all the time. There have been several stories on the news lately. Either someone is seriously hurt or dies. What can/should be done to educate these individuals about the dangers and prepare them. Should it be the family? What if the family doesn't have a clue themselves. Should the community do more? I just don't think they know that it is dangerous. They show up with a bottle of water and the clothes on their back. I really think the community could/should do more and in the school systems to teach about the outdoors. Help kids understand early what it takes to be safe. However, it isn't just kids that need the education. I learned through scouting and I don't think scouting is as big as it used to be.

http://kutv.com/topstories/local_story_163215457.html

crazy horse · Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 9:00 am Post subject:

This truly is a tragedy. I didn't personally know this kid, but i have several friends who knew him well, as he lived in the same area as i do. The thing to remember here i think is that accidents can happen to anyone at any time, and we all need to be prepared and also know our limits and not exceed them.

shagster · Joined: 31 Mar 2006 Posts: 542 Location: Somewhere in Utah

Quote: The thing to remember here i think is that accidents can happen to anyone at any time, and we all need to be prepared and also know our limits and not exceed them.
Yea I can't agree more. I see this all the time when I am backpacking or hiking with friends. Many people don't plan very well and are not very well prepared for what can happen. Several times just last year I had to haul people off the mountain because they slipped and got hurt or something of that sort. I ALWAYS go prepared for any kind of situation. Yea it sucks because my pack might weight a little more, but when it comes to life or death I will be glad that I packed the extra weight. This is truly sad to hear and it becoming more and more common these days. I agree with accadacca that more needs to be done to educate people about the outdoors. Maybe that way we can cut down on the number of people that are needing to be rescued from the mountain or even the number of deaths.

RedMan · Joined: 08 Dec 2005 Posts: 782 Location: Colorado???

What a shame.

I think it is a systemic societal problem.
We have conditioned people to believe that help is only minutes away and all you have to do is dial 911 and someone else will take care of whatever problems you have created.

How many people jump in their cars and dirve around constantly with no idea if they have a spare tire? If its inflated? A jack in the trunk? Hardly anyone checks because they can get help.

I have stopped on I70 half a dozen times to find people with flats, overheated cars, seized engines because they were out of oil and absolutely no ability to do anything about it but use their cell phone.

The safelty net has created a thought process that has turned reality on its head. 100 years ago people would never have thought of doing what we consider recreation. We see people going down the green river every day. JW Powell was considered a national hero for doing that and he dang near didn't make it. After you see it on TV the 100th time it looks easy so who needs to prepare??

That same mentality goes hiking. It rides mountain bikes. I found a group of 12 middle aged Mt. Bikers from NYC and New Jersey about 20 miles SW Moab in late May 05. Lost. No Map. The biggest camel back they had was 50 Oz. ALL of them were out of water. I gave them 3.5 gls of water, helped them get back on track and they still insisted they were going to back track to Jacksons Ladder, climb the portage, cross Amasa Back and return to Moab and it was already 7pm when I found them. I told them I'd alert the county morgue.

People astound me.

price1869 · Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 11:10 pm Post subject:

Wow,

Can I completely disagree?

The wild is wild. You can't be prepared for every situation. All you can do is assess risk and prepare as best you can.

I've had a lot of close calls. I've had holds break while rock climbing. I've even mis-judged rappel lengths. It doesn't say what happened to these kids. Does everyone carry a hydraulic jack into the slots just in case a large rock falls on his arm?

I gotta take the devil's advocate for these kids. There are a lot of stupid people out there, and this is tragic, but doesn't mean that the kids were stupid. We all die someday, so I guess we're all stupid eventually. I'll probably be stupid sooner than most I guess.

I love chewing gum.

price1869 · Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 11:12 pm Post subject:

Okay, maybe I'm not disagreeing with everyone, just wanted to add my 2 cents, and excuse myself if I die soon.

Price

TreeHugger · Joined: 02 Aug 2005 Posts: 1069

I think reality is a mixture of both of your thoughts. Yes, stuff happens and that's the way it is in the wilderness, but taking off on a huge ride in Moab with essentially no water is just plain stupid. Going into the wilderness without at LEAST basic survival gear - food, water, something to block the wind, a first aid kit - is just dumb, yet how many people do you see doing that? I've seen a lot. Climbing Mt. Olympus, I saw probably 4 people with nothing but a 20 oz water bottle that they were carrying in their hand.... (as I griped about having a pack with 100 oz of water, a windbreaker, a long sleeve shirt, food, and a small first aid kit!).

What I think many people lack the MOST when venturing out in the wilderness is common sense.

JamisJockey · Joined: 16 May 2005 Posts: 1023 Location: Woodbridge, VA

Nothing should be done to educate them. Let the stupid weed themselves from the gene pool.....

icthys · Joined: 27 Jun 2005 Posts: 572 Location: Heber

JamisJockey wrote: Nothing should be done to educate them. Let the stupid weed themselves from the gene pool.....

Next time cyclists are riding 3-4 wide in the middle of the highway I won't drive on the other side of the double yellow road to keep from running them over.

How about a outdoors class in high school. Mandatory or not I would have attended it and I think most would just because it's a fun class like pottery or photography.

I've always thought that those who were unprepared or being stupid and needed a rescue team to get them out of trouble should pay for the rescue. I pay for a tow truck when my faulty fuel filter goes out in the middle of Wyoming and it wasn't my fault.

RedMan · Joined: 08 Dec 2005 Posts: 782 Location: Colorado???

icthys, if you happen to be a farmer in Kanab you would get away with that. I think the rest of us would fry.

As for the charge to be rescued, I do know that in Colorado if you are out on a snowmobile or ATV without an OHV registration and need to be rescued that you will pay the cost. The registration is specifically to pay for rescue. Not sure how this works in Utah. But I do agree with you 100%. Either you buy "rescue insurance" or you pay the bill.

I think I addressed some of this in the "Who is responsible" post.

http://uutah.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1589&highlight=responsible

Shan · Joined: 24 Jun 2005 Posts: 796 Location: Cache Valley

So how exactly did he fall? Did he trip on a root? Try to jump across something?

TreeHugger · Joined: 02 Aug 2005 Posts: 1069

That's what I always want to know in stories like this - how did it happen?

It's my understanding that most rescues are now being billed to the evacuee, unless it's an act of nature that put them there.

JamisJockey · Joined: 16 May 2005 Posts: 1023 Location: Woodbridge, VA

icthys wrote: JamisJockey wrote: Nothing should be done to educate them. Let the stupid weed themselves from the gene pool.....

Next time cyclists are riding 3-4 wide in the middle of the highway I won't drive on the other side of the double yellow road to keep from running them over.

Don't be an ass.
If someone is doing something stupid, you don't need to do something even more stupid to put them in further peril. That would be akin to coming across lost hikers and giving them bogus directions because they're stupid enough to get lost in the first place. :frustrated:

I agree with your later comment, though: Anyone needing rescue should be paying for thier own rescue. While being prepared in the wilderness is the smart thing to do, accidents still happen. Its a risk we all take, and taxpayers shouldn't be expected to foot that bill.

Glockguy · Joined: 27 Jul 2005 Posts: 323

I am pretty sure I know where they died at. Have any of you ever climbed Twin Peaks? There is stretch after a large boulder field that is just scary.

As I was crossing this ridge I thought if I tripped or passed out or anything it is game over. Who know but the two guys what really happened?

Being an explorer in the outdoors has many possible hazards. Maybe that is part of the draw for us being there? it is important to be prepared and use wise judgement about our own skills and if they are up to par for the area we are at.

Scott P · Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1760

Quote: I gotta take the devil's advocate for these kids. There are a lot of stupid people out there, and this is tragic, but doesn't mean that the kids were stupid.

I hate to judge since I wasn't there, but this time there are photos printed. Now if they really were on Dromedary or Twins, in shorts, mid-June, with no ice axes, which is all what the photos indicate, then it doesn't seem like they were prepared.