Bogley

[Brian in SLC]

hesse15 wrote: if wind put a tree on the highway i will not blame it
if a damn dude put a tree in the highway I WILL!!!

I always shudder to think of the consequences of folks removing or changing anchors. Sure, nature could do it and be prepared, yada yada.

Just like some folks removing bolts and using deadman anchors, if someone removed the pipes, who knows? Did they directly cause a death? Probably not. Would, on some level, they feel guilty about it, or, have something to do with it? Their actions resulted in a difference in the canyon. Not nature. That difference may have played a part in the accident.

I've done Knotted Rope and the pipe was there. Made it easier, no doubt.

Whether or not the pretzl configuration was usable is subjective, too. When no alternative was left in place other than to "get some skills", then, I don't know. I guess I'm glad its not me having to think about some measure of responsibility.

I always think of worse case, for some reason, as a guide to what might or might not be my actions, when I think of my actions affecting another person's safety or sense of aesthetics (two wildly different things sometimes!). Best to not, usually. But, really, could the person(s) who removed the pipe stand up at the funeral and say something comforting to the friends and family of the deceased? Probably not. So I'd say, as a measure, if you don't have the courage to stand up at a funeral, maybe don't mess with removing (or adding, for that matter) anchors or other safety oriented items in the field. Something to think about.

Maybe too daunting. Sobering to ponder. Unfair assessment? Yeah, probably too harsh.

To me, its a huge responsibility not to be taken lightly.

-Brian in SLC

[Iceaxe]

hesse15 wrote: if wind put a tree on the highway i will not blame it
if a damn dude put a tree in the highway I WILL!!!

Yes... but you are arguing it's OK for a dude to put a tree in the highway but not OK for a different dude to remove it....

:ne_nau:

[Iceaxe]

One other thought.... its not like there is a shortage of pipes in the Knotted Rope area. You walk by half a dozen on the way to the first pothole. If a pipe could have been used to rescue the woman why did the man not hike 1/4 mile back up canyon and fetch one?

:popcorn:

[rockgremlin]

I suppose it would be pretty easy to get away with homicide in a slot canyon. Nobody around to see you give your partner a shove into a pothole and then wait for nature to take it's course. Sooooo....anyone wanna accompany me down Quandary direct this weekend? Shane?

[Brian in SLC]

Iceaxe wrote: One other thought.... its not like there is a shortage of pipes in the Knotted Rope area. You walk by half a dozen on the way to the first pothole. If a pipe could have been used to rescue the woman why did the man not hike 1/4 mile back up canyon and fetch one?

Well, because the press said there was nothing the guy could do.

Kind of a grim scenario. I can't imagine.

The problem solving side of me wants to go do a practise rescue there. The superstitious side of me doesn't want to go anywhere near that place.

Kinda does make you wonder how much extra gear to have with, always, for any canyon, even an easy one. In my mind I've run through dozens of "what would I have done" type situations.

Not sure the body weight difference between the two. Without rigging a haul, I might have tried to raise directly by rapping or lowering into the pool, slapping a Prusik or two on the rope, and, just like a "pick off" rappel type rescue, but, opposite. Jug out with the person's body weight added to your own. Almost makes me want to practise it though.

Could have also gone to pool height, and, with an assist, clipped the person into a harness and have them help climb out by grabbing the harness, a loop of webbing, while pulling with two arms and pushing with legs. Clip in short as progess is made. Ugly, but, might be functional.

Not sure how hard it would have been to either drop a loop with a biner on it (2 to 1 minus the friction loss aka Canadian Drop Loop system of raising) or to rig a quick 3 to 1 Yosemite raise. Even without a self minding Prusik, might have been able to get enough throw distance for a single long raise enough to clear pool height. I've pulled a partner out of a crevasse with a Canadian drop loop system. Super quick and efficient. Must faster to rig (basically nothing more than a loop with one side of the rope fixed, pull on the other side) than either a self Prusik or a Z or C or Z by C from above.

Dunno. But, the problem solver in me is intrigued...

-Brian in SLC

[Iceaxe]

Quote: I suppose it would be pretty easy to get away with homicide in a slot canyon. Nobody around to see you give your partner a shove into a pothole and then wait for nature to take it's course. Sooooo....anyone wanna accompany me down Quandary direct this weekend? Shane?

My wife said the same thing.... and just after I upped my life insurance.... Now I'm truly scared.

Quote: Well, because the press said there was nothing the guy could do.

:roflol:

Quote: The problem solving side of me wants to go do a practise rescue there. The superstitious side of me doesn't want to go anywhere near that place.

This has been my thought exactly.... I figure a practice rescue might answer a lot of questions.

.

[hank moon]

sardinianhothead wrote: if wind put a tree on the highway i will not blame it
if a damn dude put a tree in the highway I WILL!!!

Hesse, your analogy does not hold up. Give up before it's too late!

Or take a sincere stab at explaining why your analogy doesn't hold water. This little exercise might help expand your viewpoint a little... <smile>

[hesse15]

So i was thinking people can understand a comparizations whithout spending multiple words,
apparently not
you need lot of words
ok i will try to explain to you using more words

if a modification happen in the canyon because of natural unwilling events such us :wind, rain, water flood ,sun hearthquake, twister, fire and such.
I will not blame and accept us NATURAL EVENT that modify a canyon.
If a damn dude decide for estethic reasons, ego reason , having a very little brain reason, to modify the canyon and make it more dangerous to the people after him, and cause consequence injury or death ,directly because of his acting and decision, I WILL NOT AGREE WITH HIM AND I WILL NOT ACCEPT IT

disclaimer:i do not have time to check spelling grammar mistakes and because is a second language to me leave me alone.
otherwise i can write in perfect lovely correct Italian, but i think i will be either more difficult to understand me.

by the way if a dude remove a barricade on the highway that is put because the highway on the back collapsed , but this dude has a 4wd so is not a big deal for him.
this is another scenario of dude with very little brain (and perhaps some other little part on his body) decide what is right for the rest of the people.

somebody mention the cartoon to me i like it



hank moon wrote: [quote=hotheaded sardinian]if wind put a tree on the highway i will not blame it
if a damn dude put a tree in the highway I WILL!!!

Hesse, your analogy does not hold up. Give up before it's too late!

Or take a sincere stab at explaining why your analogy doesn't hold water. This little exercise might help expand your viewpoint a little... <smile>[/quote]

[Iceaxe]

hesse.... we understand what you are saying.

My question to you is why is it OK for a dude to place a bolt (or pipe) but not OK for anther dude to remove it? Both are human modifications to the canyon.

The way I see it you want to pick and chose which human modifications are acceptable?

:popcorn:

[hank moon]

hesse15 wrote:
If a damn dude decide for estethic reasons, ego reason , having a very little brain reason, to modify the canyon and make it more dangerous to the people after him, and cause consequence injury or death ,directly because of his acting and decision, I WILL NOT AGREE WITH HIM AND I WILL NOT ACCEPT IT

ok, now you're making sense. I agree those are detestable motivations for modifying canyons in an unsafe manner.

I love communication - it's such a time saver.

Quote: disclaimer:i do not have time to check spelling grammar mistakes and because is a second language to me leave me alone.

Sorry, not leaving you alone...if you want to be alone, what are you doing here? Good EN lessons abound 'round here! The extra words help my understanding - thanks.


Awesome cartoon!

[hesse15]

by the way I am technically only half sardinian , so a mellow one.... :popcorn:

Sardinians are strong, proud, attached to land and tradition, small in number, not in spirit. Long isolation and a past marked by foreign dominations and invasions have left them friendly, yet a bit cold. However, after a first impact, they turn into a hospitable and generous people. Thus, for example, primarily in hamlets, you are often invited immediately to an event like a birth or marriage or simply to taste special, home-made food . Indeed, due to harsh life conditions, traditional Sardinia puts strong emphasis on rituality and ceremonies such as baptisms, engagements, illness-deaths, identified as the key steps of the “life cycle”.

Having a very strong sense of autonomy and traditions Sardinians do not accept harsh interventions and changes brought from outside, those changes that do not respect their culture rich with positive values like hospitality, sense of family and loyalty.

hank moon wrote: hesse15 wrote:
If a damn dude decide for estethic reasons, ego reason , having a very little brain reason, to modify the canyon and make it more dangerous to the people after him, and cause consequence injury or death ,directly because of his acting and decision, I WILL NOT AGREE WITH HIM AND I WILL NOT ACCEPT IT

ok, now you're making sense. I agree those are detestable motivations for modifying canyons in an unsafe manner.

I love communication - it's such a time saver.

Quote: disclaimer:i do not have time to check spelling grammar mistakes and because is a second language to me leave me alone.

Sorry, not leaving you alone...if you want to be alone, what are you doing here? Good EN lessons abound 'round here! The extra words help my understanding - thanks.


Awesome cartoon!

[stefan]

:popcorn:

[hank moon]

hesse15 wrote: by the way I am technically only half sardinian , so a mellow one....

Yikes! thanks for the warning. I'll be sure to invest in a kevlar codpiece when i visit.

off to BIFF

see y'all next week...

[oldno7]

What if rescuee were unconscious?
would make a broken arm seem quite minor.
theres always got to be a solution but without facts
our speculations are unending.
I think it is just our nature too think that we could/would do
something that would save ones life in a like situation but having not been there at that time no one can say for sure.

[hank moon]

hesse15 wrote: I will not blame and accept us NATURAL EVENT that modify a canyon.

http://en.ce.cn/National/Local/200706/02/t20070602_11578106.shtml