Bogley

[Iceaxe]

Nutty Putty Cave closed to novices

By Jared Page
Deseret Morning News

PROVO — Spelunkers hoping to explore a popular western Utah County cave will have to crawl through a few hoops first. Deseret Morning News graphic The entrance to the Nutty Putty Cave on the west side of Utah Lake soon will be gated and public access restricted, the state School and Institutional Trust Lands Administration announced Wednesday.

Last week, SITLA agreed to a memorandum of understanding with the Timpanogos Grotto, allowing the local chapter of the National Speleological Society to manage the cave for the "foreseeable future."

Access to the cave will be at the discretion of the Timpanogos Grotto, and only "sufficiently prepared cavers" will be given free permits to enter.

"The permits will make sure (caving) groups are qualified," said Rob Cranney, NSS regional youth group liaison and Timpanogos Grotto trip coordinator. "It will make sure they have the right amount of people, the right gear, that they know what they're doing and that they're not going to damage the cave."

The gate is expected to be installed within the next three weeks.

"This is an attempt to try to avoid closing the cave," said Gary Bagley, SITLA resource specialist. "It's an issue of public safety and resource protection."

SITLA, which owns the land in the area of the Nutty Putty Cave, has been trying since January 2005 to find an interested party to take over management of the cave and be responsible for safety and preservation.

The quest was sparked by a pair of rescues over the Labor Day weekend in 2004, when Utah County emergency-response teams on separate rescues had to pull a Brigham Young University student and an Orem teenager from the cave.

SITLA originally solicited groups including BYU, Utah Valley State College and the Boy Scouts of America to lease the land. Under the proposed lease, the group would have been required to build a gate to control access to the property, maintain the land and carry a $1 million insurance policy.

"We could never come to an agreement with anybody," Bagley said. "I think part of that was their fearfulness to enter into a lease of that type, and they maybe had some fear of the liability associated with it."

Bagley said SITLA was still hopeful that a lease agreement could be reached until August 2005, when four people died in a narrow, underwater tunnel between two caverns on "Y" Mountain.

"It really came to a standstill after that," he said. "Most of those groups that had some interest just totally backed away."

With an estimated 5,000 people visiting the Nutty Putty Cave each year, Bagley said the area "was getting kind of crazy" and needed to be regulated.

"It was kind of haphazard because it was unrestricted access to the public," he said.

Bagley said he believes the agreement with the Timpanogos Grotto, which didn't have to get the insurance policy, will allow properly prepared, trained and equipped spelunkers to continue to access the caves while keeping out novice cavers who potentially could put themselves in danger.

"We're hoping that in the long run this will improve (caving) for those people who go in (the Nutty Putty Cave)," he said. "They'll have a better experience, definitely a safer experience."

A high percentage of people who visit the cave are not prepared, Cranney said. "I've been caving for 16 years," he said, "and I don't know how many times I've seen people in Nutty Putty and thought, 'What are they doing? Put the beer can down.' "

Bagley said response to the planned cave restrictions have been mixed. Some say they don't need a baby sitter to go caving, while others see the need for safety measures "I think over time it will work if people give it a chance," he said.


This Blows....

[jumar]

Speaking of Blow and gates....
Blowhole also got gated recently. I think it's in the same area.

[Iceaxe]

I wonder how long until someone use the ol' "4x4 and chain" as a key?

:five:

[Udink]

Iceaxe wrote: I wonder how long until someone use the ol' "4x4 and chain" as a key?
Aww shucks...somebody has discovered my plan! :naughty:

[accadacca]

Iceaxe wrote: I wonder how long until someone use the ol' "4x4 and chain" as a key?

:five:
:lol8: :lol8: :lol8:

[Sombeech]

I've heard about these caves for years, and just never made it down. People would tell me they would bring dates down there, (I think it was accadacca :haha: ) and it sounded fun.

Maybe permits will cut down on vandalism? :ne_nau: But it means that I'll never see the caves now, so maybe I don't care what happens to them....

[DaveOU812]

I agree this sucks. There really wasn't too much vandalism inside the cave. Some trash but it wasn't horrendous. I always tried to grab a few pieces as I left. I've taken dates down there as well. It was always a good time. I think they are taking something really cool away with this whole permit thing. I wonder what kinda of qualifications you gotta have now.

[caverspencer]

Its all my fault!!!

Yes you heard me. Its my fault. After dragging people out of the cave a few times I contacted SILTA, I bourgh Jon to one of the early meetings with them, then after several meetings with them over the course of atleast 3 years you now see the result.

Actually truth be told I ahve been out fo the caving loop almost compltely since Labor Day. After working my butt off at regional with no support and then getting publicaly ridiculed I decided I had enough of the caving politics. I am not oging to go into a rant here (well maybe just a little one) but if cavers would open up to the idea that Education is the key to protecting the caves and not secrecy things would be different. I was the presidnet of the Timp Grotto and havent been back to a meeting Since my last meeting as president in December 2005. I must say I dont miss it at all.

Anyway Jon is really the one that gets the credit. Last I was involved SILTA was trying to get UVSC and the BSA to signa lease and have a certain ammount liability insurance. I am not sure how in the world Jon was able to pull off getting control by the grotto. We are a not for porfit group with no money and no insurance.

In the end it will be a good thing. I can tell you for certain though that if people would follow guidelines things like 2 deep leadership for scouts a nd everyone wear a helmet the cave would still be open today. I know I am preaching the choir here but if you guys want stuff open to you be smart and learn how to do it right.

[caverspencer]

jumar wrote: Speaking of Blow and gates....
Blowhole also got gated recently. I think it's in the same area.

Actually Blowhole was done a few days prior to Nutty Putty.

[caverspencer]

.

[caverspencer]

Sombeech wrote: I've heard about these caves for years, and just never made it down. People would tell me they would bring dates down there, (I think it was accadacca :haha: ) and it sounded fun.

Maybe permits will cut down on vandalism? :ne_nau: But it means that I'll never see the caves now, so maybe I don't care what happens to them....

You guys make it sound like its closed for good. All that this does is ensure you are doing the cave safely. Helemt two lights etc... If you are willing to do that (which anyone with half a brain should) then you can still get access.

[Udink]

caverspencer wrote: You guys make it sound like its closed for good. All that this does is ensure you are doing the cave safely. Helemt two lights etc... If you are willing to do that (which anyone with half a brain should) then you can still get access.
Spencer, have you actually read the conditions that must be met before you can acquire a permit? Read this entire page and see if you'd care to change your "helmet and two lights" statement.

[caverspencer]

Udink wrote: caverspencer wrote: You guys make it sound like its closed for good. All that this does is ensure you are doing the cave safely. Helemt two lights etc... If you are willing to do that (which anyone with half a brain should) then you can still get access.
Spencer, have you actually read the conditions that must be met before you can acquire a permit? Read this entire page and see if you'd care to change your "helmet and two lights" statement.

No my statement is accaurate. This is what I was referring to:

9. The groups will have proper equipment and dress for caving. All participants are required to have a helmet, helmet-mounted light, extra dependable light sources, proper boots, and clothing for each member of the group. A first-aid kit and a short 15-ft hand line are strongly recommended for each group,

And if you cant meet the other requirements that are listed there you dont belong in the cave.

What is there in the requirements that you disagree with?

[Udink]

caverspencer wrote: No my statement is accaurate. This is what I was referring to:

9. The groups will have proper equipment and dress for caving. All participants are required to have a helmet, helmet-mounted light, extra dependable light sources, proper boots, and clothing for each member of the group. A first-aid kit and a short 15-ft hand line are strongly recommended for each group,
Yes, item 9 in the requirements does mention proper lighting and a helmet. But you said, "All that this does is ensure you are doing the cave safely. Helemt two lights etc...," when actually it does a LOT more than that. You made it sound as though the requirements are as minimal as wearing a helmet and a light, when there are 14 requirements and 10 sub-requirements under item #2.

caverspencer wrote: And if you cant meet the other requirements that are listed there you dont belong in the cave.

What is there in the requirements that you disagree with?
#1, limiting it to certain times. It's a CAVE, what does the time of day have to do with anything inside a cave?

#2a, leaders must be at least 21. So a 20-year-old is incapable of having a safe caving experience?

#3, nobody under 14 years of age allowed. I think most 10- to 13-year-olds are perfectly capable of handling Nutty Putty.

And last, but not least, simply the fact that you must get a permit to enter a place that is much less dangerous than thousands of other areas located on SITLA land which do NOT require a permit. There are natural hazards everywhere, and Nutty Putty Cave is on the low end of the scale when it comes to how dangerous it can be.

[caverspencer]

Udink wrote: caverspencer wrote: No my statement is accaurate. This is what I was referring to:

9. The groups will have proper equipment and dress for caving. All participants are required to have a helmet, helmet-mounted light, extra dependable light sources, proper boots, and clothing for each member of the group. A first-aid kit and a short 15-ft hand line are strongly recommended for each group,
Yes, item 9 in the requirements does mention proper lighting and a helmet. But you said, "All that this does is ensure you are doing the cave safely. Helemt two lights etc...," when actually it does a LOT more than that. You made it sound as though the requirements are as minimal as wearing a helmet and a light, when there are 14 requirements and 10 sub-requirements under item #2.

caverspencer wrote: And if you cant meet the other requirements that are listed there you dont belong in the cave.

What is there in the requirements that you disagree with?
#1, limiting it to certain times. It's a CAVE, what does the time of day have to do with anything inside a cave?

#2a, leaders must be at least 21. So a 20-year-old is incapable of having a safe caving experience?

#3, nobody under 14 years of age allowed. I think most 10- to 13-year-olds are perfectly capable of handling Nutty Putty.

And last, but not least, simply the fact that you must get a permit to enter a place that is much less dangerous than thousands of other areas located on SITLA land which do NOT require a permit. There are natural hazards everywhere, and Nutty Putty Cave is on the low end of the scale when it comes to how dangerous it can be.




I have personally spent many hours in the cave on rescues in a 2 week period of time. The people entered late at night. People get bored at night and do stupid things. I dont even think all 21 year olds are responsible. The last rescue we had chisel a 23 year old out because he was trying to squeeze under a rock in the maze there was no reason for him to try to queeze through that. Insurance companies go by 25 years of age, why do you think that is? At 21 you are most likely in college and have not matured. I would dare argue that 21 is not even old enough.

Sure a 20 year old can have a safe experience but they are not mature enough to lead trip, some perhaps, but those that are have all the ones that are not to thank. Being old enough to be safe and being smart and mature enough to understnad that its not a playplace are two different things.

to answer you third question, again sure there are some 10-13 year olds that can do it safely, with the right leadership that wouldnt be a problem. The BSA guidelins require people to be 14 or older to do any high adventure and I dont argue that age limit.

As far as there being thousands of mines and caves on SITLA land, you are terribly wrong. I think you might be a bit confused with what SITLA is comapred to the BLM and Forest service. The 4 natural caves now have gates. Most of the caves are either on BLM, Forest service or private land. There are a mere handful on SITLA land. SITLA is not in the business of managing land, they have no budget for that. SITLA is State Institutional Trust Lands Administration. Their only purpose is to hang onto the land and make money for utah eductaion either by leasing the land for mineral rights or selling the land. and its a rare unfortunate circumstance that the caves happened to be on their land. Although on the other hand had they been on BLM land the gates would have been done several years sooner.

Rather than whining because that the cave is gated you should really be thankful that the grotto worked so hard to keep it open. SITLAs answer is the cheapest lowest liability approach, that would have meant a bulldozer and cement truck and seal the entrance permanently.

The simple bottom line is that if you want to be able to go on peoples land, respect and abide by the rules. Its their land and if you dont like the rules then you have no right being there. Its unfortunate that a select few punks get everything closed for the rest of us. But you should feel lucky with Nutty Putty, if you are responsible you can still go to it. Stop your whining, print out the form and request a trip, its not that hard....