Bogley

TreeHugger · Joined: 02 Aug 2005 Posts: 937

Udink wrote:

I would guess that any hiker that has a problem with mountain biking also has an agenda to push, one that is rooted in strong emotions and has no logical basis.

I dont think this is a fair statement. Just because one doesnt like having their hike interrupted by a mountain biker does not mean they "have an agenda to push", that's ridiculous. Yes, strong emotion, perhaps, but an agenda, I doubt it.

I am an avid mountain biker and hiker. I can see both sides of the debate. There are times I want and appreciate my peace and quiet and solitude on the trail and other times I dont mind "interruptions" - and what I feel like that day will dictate where I will go. I strongly believe that there should be multi-use trails and hiking only trails.

As far as dogs. Ugh. I cant stand being harrassed by dogs on the trail, because I dont like dogs. Yes, it's nice to have responsible owners that train their dogs well, but that seems to be the exception, not the rule. But, I can appreciate dog owners wanting to get out with Fido and enjoy the great outdoors, I have many friends that do this and I advocate for them, just keep your dang dog away from me.

Udink · Joined: 21 Jul 2005 Posts: 791 Location: Price, Utah

TreeHugger wrote: Udink wrote:

I would guess that any hiker that has a problem with mountain biking also has an agenda to push, one that is rooted in strong emotions and has no logical basis.

I dont think this is a fair statement. Just because one doesnt like having their hike interrupted by a mountain biker does not mean they "have an agenda to push", that's ridiculous. Yes, strong emotion, perhaps, but an agenda, I doubt it.

I am an avid mountain biker and hiker. I can see both sides of the debate. There are times I want and appreciate my peace and quiet and solitude on the trail and other times I dont mind "interruptions" - and what I feel like that day will dictate where I will go. I strongly believe that there should be multi-use trails and hiking only trails.
My statement is completely fair. Obviously, the original question referred to shared-use trails (otherwise this would be a moot issue). Therefore, if you, as a hiker, are annoyed by an "interruption" from a mountain biker, then your agenda is that the shared-use trail should only be open to hikers. If the only reason you wouldn't want mountain bikers on the trail is because of a selfish desire to be alone, then that is a purely emotional reason, not a logical one.

Please note, I do not intend the use of the word "selfish" to be negative. There's nothing wrong with having selfish desires, but it's another matter to push them onto others.

Edit: I just noticed that I made a big mistake in my reasoning. I did not mean to frame it as "Emotional vs. Logical," since obviously the two are not mutually exclusive. To me, it's really a matter of "Emotional vs. Non-Emotional."

So, something like I don't like to share the trail with mountain bikers because it disturbs my tranquility would be a purely emotional reason, while I don't like to share because they tear up the trail and are a safety hazard for us slow-moving hikers would be less emotional. However, the latter wouldn't quite count for this debate, since I think we're talking about bikers in general, not just those who don't follow the rules.

Shan · Joined: 24 Jun 2005 Posts: 794 Location: Cache Valley

Quote: I strongly believe that there should be multi-use trails and hiking only trails.

Well wilderness trails are only horses and foot traffic, so that's almost a hiking only trail!

marc olivares · Joined: 19 Jun 2005 Posts: 614 Location: sugarhouse

TreeHugger wrote:

As far as dogs. Ugh. I cant stand being harrassed by dogs on the trail, because I dont like dogs. Yes, it's nice to have responsible owners that train their dogs well, but that seems to be the exception, not the rule. But, I can appreciate dog owners wanting to get out with Fido and enjoy the great outdoors, I have many friends that do this and I advocate for them, just keep your dang dog away from me.

i absolutely agree

i could care less about mtn. bikers but it's the dog owners that consistently piss me off. :frustrated:

i, like scott, have 2 small children and hike regularly, and i'll kick the most friendly of dogs if they get near my children. not a route i would advocate taking, but if they get next to my kids off a leash, (as a parent) you have to expect the worst.
we were gardening in my front yard. my 2 year old was sitting by our front door w/ my wife and i 10-12 feet from her. a runner strolls by w/ dog off leash...and where does it go? yep right toward my kid. after some lovely words were exchanged, i've yet to see them run by my house again, but unfortunately, my little one freaks now when dogs charge her. in the neighborhood, trail etc.... YEP, dogs piss me off not Mtn bikers!

Shan · Joined: 24 Jun 2005 Posts: 794 Location: Cache Valley

It seems dog owners and dogs are being hated equally. If someone hates dogs, do they hate just the out of control, untrained, unleashed ones - or just four legged furry friends all together? Because you know a good dog is as good as its owner who trained him/her. I think it should be the owner you're hating/glaring at/whatever, that is unless you just hate dogs every single one of them all together.

So would all you dog haters be pleased if I mountain biked with my dog while ON the leash - because that's what we do around town for our daily "walks." Yes she's that good she can run on a leash by my bike. It's just not the most practical because of the narrowness of the trail. I'm not going to keep my dog at home 24/7 while I go play, however.

What would make you all satisfied enough? (besides not seeing dogs at all) Obviously I want to continue enjoying the outdoors with "my little girl", but I don't want to be getting glared or swore at either.

Scott P · Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1626

Quote: It seems dog owners and dogs are being hated equally. If someone hates dogs, do they hate just the out of control, untrained, unleashed ones - or just four legged furry friends all together? Because you know a good dog is as good as its owner who trained him/her.

Quote: What would make you all satisfied enough? (besides not seeing dogs at all) Obviously I want to continue enjoying the outdoors with "my little girl", but I don't want to be getting glared or swore at either.

As long as a dog owner keeps the dog on a leash (or under control) AND cleans up the dog crap, then I don't mind them. Unfortunately, these seem in the minority, but kudos if you do.

Even the most well behaved and trained dog can't clean up their own crap, so this is on the owner. Also, a dog doesn't have to be "out of control" in the eyes of the owner to be out of control. A "friendly welll behaved" dog whom wants to play, can easily scare or knock down a child, or be annoying to adults.

As I said, if your dog is leashed, or completely under control, and the messes are cleaned up, I have no problem with them at all.

Even the most well behaved dogs and owners are inappropriate in some areas. Studies in CO have shown that even the mere scent of a predator can change habits of big horn sheep and even cause them to abandone their trails. This is one reason I consider Steve Allen to be one of the most irresponsible guidebook author in respects to wildlife (though his books have many good points as well). He actually admits and encourages taking a "100 pound German Shepard" along a bighorn sheep trail! :nono:

Shan · Joined: 24 Jun 2005 Posts: 794 Location: Cache Valley

What about this scenario - I stop, pull over/move off the trail, leash my dog, wait for everyone to pass, then go on my way (meanwhile picking up after her)? Is that not kosher enough? As long as no one is in sight, she can't be loose then walking by my side? It's not a forest service rule here to have dogs leashed at all times, only at developed areas. So I'm not breaking the law, yet being courteous to other recreators.

Scott P · Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1626

Quote: What about this scenario - I stop, pull over/move off the trail, leash my dog, wait for everyone to pass, then go on my way (meanwhile picking up after her)? Is that not kosher enough? As long as no one is in sight, she can't be loose then walking by my side? It's not a forest service rule here to have dogs leashed at all times, only at developed areas. So I'm not breaking the law, yet being courteous to other recreators.

That sounds much better than most dog owners, and I can't see why anyone would have a problem with it. PS, leash laws are indeed in affect in most Forest Service Wilderness areas, but not outside teh wilderness. Some wilderness areas might not have this rule, however.

Shan · Joined: 24 Jun 2005 Posts: 794 Location: Cache Valley

Scott Patterson wrote: Quote: What about this scenario - I stop, pull over/move off the trail, leash my dog, wait for everyone to pass, then go on my way (meanwhile picking up after her)? Is that not kosher enough? As long as no one is in sight, she can't be loose then walking by my side? It's not a forest service rule here to have dogs leashed at all times, only at developed areas. So I'm not breaking the law, yet being courteous to other recreators.

That sounds much better than most dog owners, and I can't see why anyone would have a problem with it. PS, leash laws are indeed in affect in most Forest Service Wilderness areas, but not outside teh wilderness. Some wilderness areas might not have this rule, however.

I don't have a problem with that scenario either. I just called the ranger district in my town and asked on the leash laws. She said only in developed areas (trailheads/campgrounds/etc) do you have to leash your dog, and use common sense obviously - which is what I already heard before and feel what I do currently. Other districts may have other rules (even within the same forest), like you said.

Scott P · Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1626

Just to show you that I don't hate dogs, here are a few pictures from last years trip up Hahns Peak. We took two dogs. Having a leash was pointless since there were absolutely no people around anyway.

I'm not sure why, but everyone else but one other person bailed before the trip. Many were committed to go, but the worst blizzard of the year hit on the planned date of January 8, 2005. What a bunch of wussies (the drop outs). Anyway, the two dogs helped break trail and we climbed the mountain anyway.

live2ride · Joined: 20 Jun 2005 Posts: 1112 Location: Riding my bike

Wow, those pics are great, was this an overnight thing or just a one day excursion? Great Pics DOG HATER!!!! J/K!!

Scott P · Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1626

One long day.

packfish · Joined: 17 Feb 2006 Posts: 293 Location: Cache Valley

It's good to see someone who enjoys doing something ask others what bothers them about it. If everyone had this attitude we wouldn't have as many confrontations as we do. I don't mind seeing bikers , except when they pass me, it's means they are going to get to my fishing hole b4 I do .(0: I hike with my dog, she is well trained and doesn't really give someone else a second glance, I really don't think she knows she is a dog. Even though she is extremely well trained ( mostly by herself) I still pull out the leash when someone comes down the trail, mostly for my peace of mind and I do bury her crap .

live2ride · Joined: 20 Jun 2005 Posts: 1112 Location: Riding my bike

Looks like people have major issues with dog owners not cleaning the poop up, so everyone must feel the same in regards to horses? Nothing worse than riding/walking on a trail and looking around not particulary eyeballing the trail trail when suddenly you get horse crap all over? I like horses but there is nothing more that ticks me off than a trail littered with horse poop. Also, it seems that some horse owners (I am not saying everyone, and I know this applies to Bikers/hikers as well) seems to use the trails when they are still muddy and wet which I believe causes more trail damage than biking/hiking. What are your thoughts on this?

Shan · Joined: 24 Jun 2005 Posts: 794 Location: Cache Valley

Good point! Where are all the ranters and ravers about horse crap? At least my dog goes off trail (she likes privacy) and I have to go follow her.