Bogley

[ratagonia]

rock_ski_cowboy wrote: I've bought my last 565' of rope from www.canyoneeringusa.com/store but I think they are kind of low on stock for a few weeks.

How these rumors get started, I will never know. I've got 14 spools of 9mm and 25 spools of 8mm on hand at the moment. If you're looking for more than, like, a mile of rope, we might have to scramble, but for lesser orders - in stock, anxious to ship.

Tom

[ratagonia]

ratagonia wrote: rock_ski_cowboy wrote: I've bought my last 565' of rope from www.canyoneeringusa.com/store but I think they are kind of low on stock for a few weeks.

How these rumors get started, I will never know. I've got 14 spools of 9mm and 25 spools of 8mm on hand at the moment. If you're looking for more than, like, a mile of rope, we might have to scramble, but for lesser orders - in stock, anxious to ship.

Tom

Also, in stock and on-hand at Outdoor Outlet in St George. You should swing by and talk with Bo there - he be the MAN.

Tom

[ratagonia]

rock_ski_cowboy wrote:
Way to graciously take some suggestions/ a little criticism. Like I said, nothing personal, glad you had fun and learned a lot.

Et tu, Rock Ski Cowboy? Let me provide you with the opportunity to take criticism graciously.

rock_ski_cowboy wrote: I would not buy rope that thick (11.6 mm) for canyoneering. I would get about 200 foot or 180 foot of 9mm or 10mm for your first canyon rope and then you may or may not want to switch to 8mm after that. Like Eric said, its very different than rappelling on thicker ropes, but so light to carry and not a problem if you know how to set your friction properly. I've bought my last 565' of rope from www.canyoneeringusa.com/store but I think they are kind of low on stock for a few weeks. If you buy rope elsewhere, look for polyester-- it doesn't absorb water as much as nylon does. BlueWater Canyon DS and CanyonPro ropes are very very nice rope-- the ultimate canyoneering rope, and will probably last considerably longer than other makes due to their canyon specific make, double sheaths (on the DS) and spectra core (on the pro). It is pricey stuff though.

A few comments on your rope comments.

1. For canyoneering, you should buy a canyoneering-specific rope. They work better. A 200' length is kinda standard. 9mm would probably be best for your stated ambitions and current skill level.

2. Polyester/polyester works great and absorbs very little water. My canyoneering ropes (Imlay Canyon Gear) are polyester sheath/polyester core (ie, poly/poly).

3. Bluewater makes really nice ropes. They are a little bit to quite a bit more expensive than my ropes, and I don't think they are any better. They are different.

4. BW uses polyester sheath over nylon core (Canyon, 9.2mm) which makes the Canyon somewhat 'bouncy' and it absorbs more water. The nylon core allows it to have a higher breaking strength than the poly core of my ropes. We hope that this is not a property of the rope you will personally be putting to the test.

5. BW also make the "PRO" series. The Canyon Pro is 8mm, and has a polyester sheath over a Dyneema core. The Dyneema is very strong; very, very static; and very expensive. Some people think the rope is painfully stiff (ie, too static), expecially when ascending, but I have not noticed this problem (and I use them a lot).

6. Over both cores, BW also offers a "DS" version. This does not have a Double Sheath as Rock Ski Cowboy suggests, but rather the sheath uses two different fibers (Polyester and Technora) to make a "Dual Sheath". Technora is a Kevlar-like fiber, and is very cut resistant. If we canyoneered around Ninjas, this would be ultra-useful, but most ropes in canyoneering fail by abrasion rather than by sharp edge cutting, so the Technora may be somewhat better than Polyester, but maybe not.

7. BW ropes have a softer hand than my Imlay ropes. When using ropes of the same size, you will have to set up your rappel device with 'more friction' on the softer ropes.

8. My experience is that the BW ropes last somewhat longer than my Imlay ropes. How much is very hard to quantify.

9. While all ropes are likely to shrink in use, it seems like the Canyon Pro shrinks more than most.

Tom

[Udink]

ratagonia wrote: rock_ski_cowboy wrote: I've bought my last 565' of rope from www.canyoneeringusa.com/store but I think they are kind of low on stock for a few weeks.
How these rumors get started, I will never know.
He probably just didn't know that you'd get more in stock two years after he posted that. :lol8:

[skianddive]

rock_ski_cowboy wrote: BlueWater Canyon DS and CanyonPro ropes are very very nice rope-- the ultimate canyoneering rope, and will probably last considerably longer than other makes due to their canyon specific make, double sheaths (on the DS) and spectra core (on the pro). It is pricey stuff though.
Sterling also makes some great canyoneering ropes. I used their Canyon Tech rope (Technora sheath, Nylon core) two weeks ago in a semi-wet canyon, and it was one of the best feeling, unbouncy ropes I've ever used:

http://www.sterlingrope.com/products_item.asp?r_id=672&pg_id=61

They also make a poly/poly rope, too:

http://www.sterlingrope.com/products_item.asp?r_id=688&pg_id=61

[deathcricket]

ratagonia wrote: deathcricket wrote: Hey all,

First, I do totally appreciate the crits. You guys are looking out for me and I feel the love. :P

That's good. Big part of it is, we all look back on things we did at the very start that we miraculously survived, and we'd rather see you not depend on miracles (like we did).

deathcricket wrote: That being said I guess I should go in to more detail about our safety. I guess the pics are a little scary, hehe. yes I was wearing a helmet the others were not. Since I'm hoping to do more stuff like canyoneering I figure I might as well get in the habit of using it.

I was never worried about the anchors failing, maybe that's naive, but they were in great shape. They were 3/4 to 1 inch rebar, mounted in the rock at about 75 degrees facing away from the edge. Then they had a piece towards the top mounted at 90 degrees so it looked like an upside down "L". This was to prevent the rope from sliding up, even if it did somehow manage to defy gravity. I was told they were drilled in about 2 feet (no proof though) and glued in with some expanding grey cement like substance. And there were 3 of these for each rope. So if one did fail there would be 2 others to still hold it.

Case in point. You will probably NEVER see another anchor set up even remotely like that. While it sounds like the guys who set it up maybe knew their way around a piece of rebar, that is NOT how rock anchors are made. There are reliable ways to put metal into rock, but that is not one of them. And while I suspect that these jury-rigged anchors are pretty strong when new, I also suspect they might become unstrong at some point in the near future.

deathcricket wrote: Now going crazy jumping around on the rope I was concerned about first as well. But here's how he explained it to me and it made a huge amount of sense, comments or corrections of course always welcome. Going down the rope and braking causes the most stress on the rope. Gravity is pulling you down and de-accelerating (is that a word?) pulls the rope the hardest. If you are "tied off", the stress on the rope is pretty much the same all the time and with jumping, the motion is away from the cliff face and not down. I hope I'm explaining right, but I'm thinking it's like a huge swing. The force pulling downwards never reaches anyhting close to doing a large jump, falling 30 feet and braking as you come close to the cliff.

Lastly and most dangerous is a shearing action. The spot on top where the rope touches the edge. The rope slides back and forth and the rock cuts through it like butter. This place had "grooves" formed in the rock from so many people going over the years and the rocks are sandstone (I believe), so nice and soft. So there was a nice channell for the ropes to sit in. He also had a 4 foot section of garden hose (slit down the middle) that he would wrap around the rope for that section. He explained it that when dirt gets in the fibers of the rope it weakens them greatly. He also was adamant about us not stepping on the rope ever for this reason too.

The rock in Snow Canyon is especially soft, even by sandstone standards, and tends to be fairly easy on the ropes. It is good they took precautions, such as the slit-hose rope-guard. Dirt getting in the rope is not all that much of a problem for canyoneers, and stepping on the rope is allowed in canyoneering (but not in climbing).

In other words, these guys had quite a few things right. That's good.

deathcricket wrote: All the ropes were 11mm statics except for that yellow one you see me on in a couple pics. That one had a little bit of bounce to it I noticed. Not much but it was noticeably different from the other 3 for sure.

Looking back, I guess I should have maybe put this in the "general" section, cause no way we would have been doing this kind of stuff in a technical canyon, like the ones everyone else here does. So I'm sorry if I gave that impression. Just exited taking my first step towards that goal and wanted to share.

Thanks again though for the crits. But with this long winded explanation, are there still objections? Did I get any of my ideas wrong? One fall from this rock, helmet or not and I'd be dead. Not a comforting thought.

Actually, this is a good place to put this post and thread. 'tis a good thing for you to learn how to rappel BEFORE getting in a canyon. I think you will find it quite different with the smaller ropes most of us use, so be careful and seek advice on how to set up your rap device.

The most disturbing thing to me, is the jumping around and flips and stuff, WITHOUT A HELMET. I think the fancy-ass rappelling, timed jumps, flips, crossings, all that stuff is pretty cool. But mess up the timing on one of those and you could swing into the rock hitting head first. Even if not injured, most people would let go of the rope, and fall to their death. Not my first choice in leisure activities, but heck, I'm an old fart.

My advice is, if these guys ask you again, is to politely have a prior commitment. They do know what they are doing to some degree, but they also have absolutely no clue as to what they are doing on other points. Run away!!! This will be (come summer) a great forum for hooking into some Zion trips and learning from some of the people here who know what they are doing. In canyons. Or, if you are anxious to spend money, come take a one day basic course at Zion Adventures: http://www.zionadventures.com

Tom

I'm stupid for bringing up this thread, sorry. I just wanted to show the best damn place in STG to learn rapelling from another thread. It's free, has perfect anchors, a lower section you can latch on without the scary "over the edge" stuff.

However, even 2 years later I feel compelled to defend me and my friends (a little). A couple of your points are not valid IMO. Since I've never seen comparable pics posted here in 2 years since then, I have to assume we were a little crazy. :)

Doing a flip without tieing off would be stupid. We were tied off so even if you let completely go of the rope it would not move. If I was knocked completely unconscious, I would just hang there.

We were jumping over each other. We had a spotter so if we screwed up we wouldn't be banging our head on a rock. The person would catch us.

The anchors were perfect, 3 for each rope and solid. I've never seen anything better in Zion or any trail in 2 years since. If there was ever a place you could "hotdog stunt rapell" this is it. I hope he doesnt mind but Jman has a really good pic he posted on the other thread of the first set of anchors. The rest are pretty much the same thing though. And I'm pretty sure these are managed by the BLM or reputable source in the snow canyon park.

I've vowed to not post my crazy stunts, lets drop the chastisement ok guys? I never do stuff like this in a canyon anyways. But yeah I do really like hanging with these guys and don't feel we do/did anything wreckless. Just having some safe fun. Also if I ever decide to go with a group from here, I will be a little angel.

:haha:

[ratagonia]

deathcricket wrote:
Doing a flip without tieing off would be stupid. We were tied off so even if you let completely go of the rope it would not move. If I was knocked completely unconscious, I would just hang there.

We were jumping over each other. We had a spotter so if we screwed up we wouldn't be banging our head on a rock. The person would catch us.

The anchors were perfect, 3 for each rope and solid. I've never seen anything better in Zion or any trail in 2 years since. If there was ever a place you could "hotdog stunt rapell" this is it. I hope he doesnt mind but Jman has a really good pic he posted on the other thread of the first set of anchors. The rest are pretty much the same thing though. And I'm pretty sure these are managed by the BLM or reputable source in the snow canyon park.

I've vowed to not post my crazy stunts, lets drop the chastisement ok guys? I never do stuff like this in a canyon anyways. But yeah I do really like hanging with these guys and don't feel we do/did anything wreckless. Just having some safe fun. Also if I ever decide to go with a group from here, I will be a little angel.

:haha:

The BLM and State Parks rarely if ever maintain anchors. Too much liability.

And the anchors are safe because?... they haven't broken yet? Do you have ANY information on the anchors, other than "they look good" and "they haven't broken yet"?

I'm very happy to hear that you were tied off and had a spotter for those tricks. I'm very happy to hear that you are still alive. Keep it up.

Can't say anymore without looking even MORE snippy. So I won't.

Tom

[trackrunner]

There is a reason he is called the emperor

[hank moon]

Yes, there is...and it's located in the British Museum!

[Summit42]

hank moon wrote: Yes, there is...and it's located in the British Museum!

:roflol:

[trackrunner]

And look at all the books on his vast canyoneering knowledge. The white ones are anchor set up.

[Iceaxe]

hank moon wrote: Yes, there is...and it's located in the British Museum!

:roflol:

I double dog dare one of you guys to put a helmet on that bust.

:2thumbs:

[stefan]

much respect to the emperor,
aka the canyon helmet sheriff

[hank moon]

stefan wrote: much respect to the emperor,
aka the canyon helmet sheriff


:hail2thechief:

[James_B_Wads2000]

deathcricket wrote: However, even 2 years later I feel compelled to defend me and my friends (a little).

"What happen to you man, you used to be about the music"

It's fun to see people get all grons up on the internet. Don't feel the slighest bit of compellment (is that a word?) to defend yourself. The number one reason people will git after you on the internets is because of lack of sex. I know I used to throw down judgement from my ivory towers. Then I found a more healthly outlet for my rage... GIRLS GONE WILD!!! :rockon:


James