Bogley

[Udink]

:nono:




Sorry, I just wanted to get in on all this finger-waving action. :lol8:

[Sombeech]

rock_ski_cowboy wrote: I can't help but notice but its the guys with no experience chiming in here how cool this is and that its AOK.

Who is it that doesn't have rapelling experience? Maybe accadacca? :ne_nau: You must not be talking about me. I bought my first harness 13 years ago. Sure, I don't have many canyon trip reports, I've just been into other things lately, and plan to get back into it this year.

Anyways, it just looked like everybody was pouncing on deathcricket. I think the "polite" thing to do is mention how we probably wouldn't try that. I would hate to have deathcricket feel unwelcome here after the negative feedback.

Advice is ALWAYS welcome, but negative criticism can be avoided.

[basilone0331]

I'm only gonna say welcome to the site.

[deathcricket]

Hey all,

First, I do totally appreciate the crits. You guys are looking out for me and I feel the love. :P

That being said I guess I should go in to more detail about our safety. I guess the pics are a little scary, hehe. yes I was wearing a helmet the others were not. Since I'm hoping to do more stuff like canyoneering I figure I might as well get in the habit of using it.

I was never worried about the anchors failing, maybe that's naive, but they were in great shape. They were 3/4 to 1 inch rebar, mounted in the rock at about 75 degrees facing away from the edge. Then they had a piece towards the top mounted at 90 degrees so it looked like an upside down "L". This was to prevent the rope from sliding up, even if it did somehow manage to defy gravity. I was told they were drilled in about 2 feet (no proof though) and glued in with some expanding grey cement like substance. And there were 3 of these for each rope. So if one did fail there would be 2 others to still hold it.

Now going crazy jumping around on the rope I was concerned about first as well. But here's how he explained it to me and it made a huge amount of sense, comments or corrections of course always welcome. Going down the rope and braking causes the most stress on the rope. Gravity is pulling you down and de-accelerating (is that a word?) pulls the rope the hardest. If you are "tied off", the stress on the rope is pretty much the same all the time and with jumping, the motion is away from the cliff face and not down. I hope I'm explaining right, but I'm thinking it's like a huge swing. The force pulling downwards never reaches anyhting close to doing a large jump, falling 30 feet and braking as you come close to the cliff.

Lastly and most dangerous is a shearing action. The spot on top where the rope touches the edge. The rope slides back and forth and the rock cuts through it like butter. This place had "grooves" formed in the rock from so many people going over the years and the rocks are sandstone (I believe), so nice and soft. So there was a nice channell for the ropes to sit in. He also had a 4 foot section of garden hose (slit down the middle) that he would wrap around the rope for that section. He explained it that when dirt gets in the fibers of the rope it weakens them greatly. He also was adamant about us not stepping on the rope ever for this reason too.

All the ropes were 11mm statics except for that yellow one you see me on in a couple pics. That one had a little bit of bounce to it I noticed. Not much but it was noticeably different from the other 3 for sure.

Looking back, I guess I should have maybe put this in the "general" section, cause no way we would have been doing this kind of stuff in a technical canyon, like the ones everyone else here does. So I'm sorry if I gave that impression. Just exited taking my first step towards that goal and wanted to share.

Thanks again though for the crits. But with this long winded explanation, are there still objections? Did I get any of my ideas wrong? One fall from this rock, helmet or not and I'd be dead. Not a comforting thought.

[rockgremlin]

deathcricket wrote: He also had a 4 foot section of garden hose (slit down the middle) that he would wrap around the rope for that section.

OK, now I'm feeling MUCH better about your rappelling antics!! :nod: The garden hose around the rope trick is a technique that many experienced canyoneers/climbers have adopted to avoid sawing through their ropes while on rappel. Sounds like you guys were in good hands. :2thumbs:

[deathcricket]

rockgremlin wrote:

You mentioned a start-up list. Here's a few suggestions:

~60m static rope (Start out with either 10 or 11 mm, and get a skinnier rope as you gain more experience)
~Harness (doesn't have to be fancy, just comfortable)
~Belay Device -- figure eights are good, but I prefer the ATC-XP, which is quite popular
~2-3 extra carabiners
~extra webbing
~gloves (which you have already found out about)
~some reliable shoes. The 5.10 Canyoneers are great, but aren't necessary unless you really get into the sport, and plan on using them often.
~A HELMET!!

Cool thanks for the list, that will definately help. About the rope... Thats what I'm seeming to have the most trouble deciding on. I was looking at something like this. About right?
http://www.rei.com/online/store/ProductDisplay?storeId=8000&catalogId=40000008000&productId=48018701&parent_category_rn=4500702

[deathcricket]

rock_ski_cowboy wrote:
For some (not always perfect, but you'll get the idea) examples of canyoneering type rappelling see some of erics videos. Definitely not extreme nor glorious, or even that fun, but essential for remaining not- dead for long.

I would love to see these, are they on this site? What's the link?

Thanks

-D-

[rockgremlin]

deathcricket wrote: About the rope... Thats what I'm seeming to have the most trouble deciding on. I was looking at something like this. About right?
http://www.rei.com/online/store/ProductDisplay?storeId=8000&catalogId=40000008000&productId=48018701&parent_category_rn=4500702

That rope will work, but it's a little on the pricey side (as is everything from REI). There are definitely cheaper ropes out there that are just as good. You might try www.canyoneeringusa.com, or if you're in SLC there are places that sell rope for cheaper (try the Recreation Outlet). That rope is 11.6mm. You could probably get away with something skinnier...like a 10 or 10.5mm. The skinnier the rope, the less heavy it is, which makes all of the difference in long canyons - especially if it gets wet.

I know Shane and/or Rock_Ski as well as others may know of other places that sell ropes for cheaper than your left leg. Guys?

[shaggy125]

deathcricket wrote:
I would love to see these, are they on this site? What's the link?

Thanks

-D-

Here:

http://www.utoutdoors.blogspot.com

or Here:

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=eric+godfrey

Bad examples of rappelling? Watch the Kolob video. The dude told me he had a 200 ft. static rope... Yea right, more like a 200 ft. bungee cord.

Good examples, Shenanigans, My Fault & Your Fault (Hard Day Harvey and Good Day Jim), Freezefest, or Trail.

My input on ropes, buy them from Tom Jones (http://www.canyoneeringusa.com). They are a little stiff, but loosen up as you use them, they work great, don't hold much water, withstand abuse pretty well, and are relatively cheap. If you are really going to get into canyoneering 11.5 mm is going to be way too fat. Eventually you will be using 8 mm thread and loving it (WARNING: make sure you know the difference between rapping down 11.5 mm rope and 8 mm rope before you even attempt to think about buying an 8mm rope and using it).

Eric.

[rock_ski_cowboy]

deathcricket wrote:
Cool thanks for the list, that will definately help. About the rope... Thats what I'm seeming to have the most trouble deciding on. I was looking at something like this. About right?
http://www.rei.com/online/store/ProductDisplay?storeId=8000&catalogId=40000008000&productId=48018701&parent_category_rn=4500702

Way to graciously take some suggestions/ a little criticism. Like I said, nothing personal, glad you had fun and learned a lot.

I would not buy rope that thick (11.6 mm) for canyoneering. I would get about 200 foot or 180 foot of 9mm or 10mm for your first canyon rope and then you may or may not want to switch to 8mm after that. Like Eric said, its very different than rappelling on thicker ropes, but so light to carry and not a problem if you know how to set your friction properly. I've bought my last 565' of rope from www.canyoneeringusa.com/store but I think they are kind of low on stock for a few weeks. If you buy rope elsewhere, look for polyester-- it doesn't absorb water as much as nylon does. BlueWater Canyon DS and CanyonPro ropes are very very nice rope-- the ultimate canyoneering rope, and will probably last considerably longer than other makes due to their canyon specific make, double sheaths (on the DS) and spectra core (on the pro). It is pricey stuff though.

[tanya]

What awesome photography and what young fit boys!!!!!!

I am glad you boys lived through all those stunts. SCARY! :nod:

[hank moon]

accadacca wrote: I don't care what they say this picture is just COOL!


Very cool! Looks like gymnastic jump-roping...

[denaliguide]

makes you wonder why most accidents happen on descents. if you are just getting started find a book called "mountaineering freedom of the hills". lots of good info in there on rope work and anchors. this is one book that should be in everyones library. also you can read "accidents in north american mountaineering". some chilling stories in there.

[ratagonia]

deathcricket wrote: rockgremlin wrote:

You mentioned a start-up list. Here's a few suggestions:

~60m static rope (Start out with either 10 or 11 mm, and get a skinnier rope as you gain more experience)
~Harness (doesn't have to be fancy, just comfortable)
~Belay Device -- figure eights are good, but I prefer the ATC-XP, which is quite popular
~2-3 extra carabiners
~extra webbing
~gloves (which you have already found out about)
~some reliable shoes. The 5.10 Canyoneers are great, but aren't necessary unless you really get into the sport, and plan on using them often.
~A HELMET!!

Cool thanks for the list, that will definately help. About the rope... Thats what I'm seeming to have the most trouble deciding on. I was looking at something like this. About right?
http://www.rei.com/online/store/ProductDisplay?storeId=8000&catalogId=40000008000&productId=48018701&parent_category_rn=4500702

Yes and no. The FIRST thing you should get is a helmet. You won't need a rope for quite a while, as you should go with people who actually know what they are doing (in a canyon) for a few trips. By then, you will have tried a couple different ropes and will have an idea of which type you like best.

So get yourself a helmet BEFORE you crack your melon.

Tom

[ratagonia]

deathcricket wrote: Hey all,

First, I do totally appreciate the crits. You guys are looking out for me and I feel the love. :P

That's good. Big part of it is, we all look back on things we did at the very start that we miraculously survived, and we'd rather see you not depend on miracles (like we did).

deathcricket wrote: That being said I guess I should go in to more detail about our safety. I guess the pics are a little scary, hehe. yes I was wearing a helmet the others were not. Since I'm hoping to do more stuff like canyoneering I figure I might as well get in the habit of using it.

I was never worried about the anchors failing, maybe that's naive, but they were in great shape. They were 3/4 to 1 inch rebar, mounted in the rock at about 75 degrees facing away from the edge. Then they had a piece towards the top mounted at 90 degrees so it looked like an upside down "L". This was to prevent the rope from sliding up, even if it did somehow manage to defy gravity. I was told they were drilled in about 2 feet (no proof though) and glued in with some expanding grey cement like substance. And there were 3 of these for each rope. So if one did fail there would be 2 others to still hold it.

Case in point. You will probably NEVER see another anchor set up even remotely like that. While it sounds like the guys who set it up maybe knew their way around a piece of rebar, that is NOT how rock anchors are made. There are reliable ways to put metal into rock, but that is not one of them. And while I suspect that these jury-rigged anchors are pretty strong when new, I also suspect they might become unstrong at some point in the near future.

deathcricket wrote: Now going crazy jumping around on the rope I was concerned about first as well. But here's how he explained it to me and it made a huge amount of sense, comments or corrections of course always welcome. Going down the rope and braking causes the most stress on the rope. Gravity is pulling you down and de-accelerating (is that a word?) pulls the rope the hardest. If you are "tied off", the stress on the rope is pretty much the same all the time and with jumping, the motion is away from the cliff face and not down. I hope I'm explaining right, but I'm thinking it's like a huge swing. The force pulling downwards never reaches anyhting close to doing a large jump, falling 30 feet and braking as you come close to the cliff.

Lastly and most dangerous is a shearing action. The spot on top where the rope touches the edge. The rope slides back and forth and the rock cuts through it like butter. This place had "grooves" formed in the rock from so many people going over the years and the rocks are sandstone (I believe), so nice and soft. So there was a nice channell for the ropes to sit in. He also had a 4 foot section of garden hose (slit down the middle) that he would wrap around the rope for that section. He explained it that when dirt gets in the fibers of the rope it weakens them greatly. He also was adamant about us not stepping on the rope ever for this reason too.

The rock in Snow Canyon is especially soft, even by sandstone standards, and tends to be fairly easy on the ropes. It is good they took precautions, such as the slit-hose rope-guard. Dirt getting in the rope is not all that much of a problem for canyoneers, and stepping on the rope is allowed in canyoneering (but not in climbing).

In other words, these guys had quite a few things right. That's good.

deathcricket wrote: All the ropes were 11mm statics except for that yellow one you see me on in a couple pics. That one had a little bit of bounce to it I noticed. Not much but it was noticeably different from the other 3 for sure.

Looking back, I guess I should have maybe put this in the "general" section, cause no way we would have been doing this kind of stuff in a technical canyon, like the ones everyone else here does. So I'm sorry if I gave that impression. Just exited taking my first step towards that goal and wanted to share.

Thanks again though for the crits. But with this long winded explanation, are there still objections? Did I get any of my ideas wrong? One fall from this rock, helmet or not and I'd be dead. Not a comforting thought.

Actually, this is a good place to put this post and thread. 'tis a good thing for you to learn how to rappel BEFORE getting in a canyon. I think you will find it quite different with the smaller ropes most of us use, so be careful and seek advice on how to set up your rap device.

The most disturbing thing to me, is the jumping around and flips and stuff, WITHOUT A HELMET. I think the fancy-ass rappelling, timed jumps, flips, crossings, all that stuff is pretty cool. But mess up the timing on one of those and you could swing into the rock hitting head first. Even if not injured, most people would let go of the rope, and fall to their death. Not my first choice in leisure activities, but heck, I'm an old fart.

My advice is, if these guys ask you again, is to politely have a prior commitment. They do know what they are doing to some degree, but they also have absolutely no clue as to what they are doing on other points. Run away!!! This will be (come summer) a great forum for hooking into some Zion trips and learning from some of the people here who know what they are doing. In canyons. Or, if you are anxious to spend money, come take a one day basic course at Zion Adventures: http://www.zionadventures.com

Tom