Bogley

[PunchKing]

What is all this complaining for, if I ride my bike to work and get hit. I can sue right? This is America right? Isn't that what we do when there is an issue? If I get hit hard enough I either can't/won't have to work anymore. That is a good thing! Though I suppose the driver will probably sue me in return for emotional damage and the fact his new Lexus has a scratch on it. What a quandary?

[moabfool]

PunchKing wrote: What is all this complaining for, if I ride my bike to work and get hit. I can sue right? This is America right? Isn't that what we do when there is an issue? If I get hit hard enough I either can't/won't have to work anymore. That is a good thing! Though I suppose the driver will probably sue me in return for emotional damage and the fact his new Lexus has a scratch on it. What a quandary?

All true, but I'd rather be riding a bicycle than a wheel chair. YMMV.

[moabfool]

Ih8grvty wrote: ...However, I do enjoy the scenery in the uintas, and Im normally driving slower than most traffic anyways, especially at night or early morning.
That being said, if I get cars built up behind me I pull over and let them pass when I hit a safe place to do so, why am I being unreasonable to expect a cyclist to do the same?

I agree, the cyclist should pull to the right and allow slower traffic to pass. In fact there is a new state law to that effect which cyclists, who have the same laws as motor vehicles with a few minor exceptions, are expected to abide by. But (there's always a big butt) cyclists have to be cautious about pulling over. My experience has taught me to assert my space well before an obstacle and well before a pullout ends. Motorists will judge the amount of space they'll give you based on where you're positioned when they first see you. They won't account for parked cars, gravel on the shoulder, a short pullout, etc.... Motorists' inattention/ lack of understanding is a big reason why cyclists seem so cocky. We (cyclists) have to assert our space to keep cars from running over us. I'd rather have a motorist be angry at me than ambivilent to my presence. If (s)he's angry at least (s)he saw me.


Ih8grvty wrote: since I dont own or ride a harley, am I still a biker?

I painted with a broad stroke. I'd say that anyone that rides v-twin is a 'biker' (unless they're a RUB) but I might extend it to the BMW's and the 'Wings. :cool2: Whether it extends to the rice buring crotch rockets and the street legal trail bikes is up to the individual "biker." :ne_nau: Vespas and such are right out.

[Ih8grvty]

The one bike I hate is any crotch rocket! Maybe Im just old? I like to sit back and enjoy the ride, I like roadsters, not hunched over and my knees in my chin, do 80 miles on one of them and I would tip over from being cramped and not being able to put my foot down! aches and pains!
I dont even count scooters as bikes.
Did you ever see anyone that looked cool driving a scooter?
Iv seen nerds on bikes before, but anyone on a scooter... they just look... so NOT cool. and half of the point of riding a bike is the cool factor.

[cachehiker]

PunchKing wrote: What is all this complaining for, if I ride my bike to work and get hit. I can sue right?

That's a reactive solution and not a proactive one. Everybody involved loses once there's an accident. A lawsuit is supposed to ensure one party doesn't lose everything when the other is more at fault.

Problems arise when potential punitive damages turn the courts into a veritable lottery and that's what is so very American about our court system. If they know you've got money, people will trip over a pine cone on your sidewalk and sue over it.

Actual damages: A bump on the head and $100 to get it looked at.
Convince a jury you're negligent and need to be punished: $20,000.

[JP]

moabfool wrote: agree, cyclists should obey all traffic control signals. But what if they don't?
That's when they end up dead (or a vegetable) and for the motorist that struck them; lifetime of pain. Especially knowing it wasn't their fault and only if they left the house a minute earlier. Then, for some reason, everybody cries that it was the vehicles fault...The mentality of most people seeing a motorcycle, bicycle or pedestrian involved in an accident, it cannot be their fault. It's always the vehicles in their eyes. Sympathy over education.

moabfool wrote: PunchKing wrote: If I get hit hard enough I either can't/won't have to work anymore.

All true, but I'd rather be riding a bicycle than a wheel chair. YMMV.
Spoken from somebody that still has use of all his God given senses. Take one away and ask yourself if the accident was worth it. Take two, take away feel.

X2 on that MoabFool :cool2:

[Sombeech]

I bike on the road occasionally. I see road cyclists breaking the law all the time. They'll run every damned stop sign, even roll through some of the red lights.

It's just too dangerous for me to do it often.

[abirken]

Sombeech wrote: I bike on the road occasionally. I see road cyclists breaking the law all the time. They'll run every damned stop sign, even roll through some of the red lights.

It's just too dangerous for me to do it often.


Agree. I'll hit a road every now and then in order to stay on route-get back to the trail. But road biking isn't for me. Way too scarey. Afraid of the motorists to be honest.

In past experience with SOME road bikers I know (not all), most are out for a personal challenge. Like how quick they get from point A to point B and in how much time. Makes me wonder how focused they are on following road rules and their surroundings when they are in that state of euphoria from the ride? :ne_nau:

[TreeHugger]

moabfool wrote: JP wrote:
Instead of making this anti-vehicle, let's not leave out the bikes. The ones that do not stop at stop signs and the ones that feel just because they're wearing a fancy little helmet, rules of the road do not apply to them. I've seen tons of accidents where the cyclists were at fault of the accidents they were involved in. From kids that didn't know any better to arrogant adults that should have known better.

I agree, cyclists should obey all traffic control signals. But what if they don't? Why do motorists get so angry about this, especially if it does nothing to slow them down? I think it's a jealousy issue more than anything. They wish they could weave through stopped traffic or bust through four-way stops. Get over it. If the cyclist gets hit they're the one who will pay the price. Whether the stone hits the glass or the glass hits the stone the result is the same.

BTW, do you see cyclists getting angry because there's a car out there somewhere doing 90 on the freeway (something illegal that they can't do & and has zero effect on their life)? I think not.

MoabFool, I think these are very thought provoking questions and comments that no one is really addressing. I think they're great and spot on. People should be more angry and irritated at the drivers who are running lights and breaking laws and endangering their lives.

It's funny how different people's perceptions can be .... I road bike probably 75 miles a week, and I rarely see people breaking laws such as running red lights. I don't (usually), and most people I ride with and know who ride, don't (usually). Yeah, I run the occasional stop sign, after slowing to check for traffic so I dont get killed, but I'll bet most of you do that in your own cars and dont gripe about it.

[JP]

TreeHugger wrote: but I'll bet most of you do that in your own cars and dont gripe about it.
I'm sure you own a car as well.

But, when two cars come together due to a stop sign violator, it's two cars and depending on the intersection, it could be a low impact crash. Mass and momentum win. Bike and vehicle coming together in an intersection, bike loses each and every time. Low impact or high impact; injury, serious physical injury or death will result.

Paying the price is the cyclist? Paying the price is that kid on the bike, even though he was at fault or the arrogant adult? Those are thought provoking? I'll give ya thought provoking. Have you seen a cyclist struck by a car? Have you seen a kid struck by a car? People think it's a little tap and everything is OK. BS! Head trauma, loss of limbs, paralysis, coma and then the mental trauma the operator of the vehicle and family of the loved one hit...Come on. You make it sound like getting hit is noble and you're some kind of super hero. Here's a little clip of reality, watch closely.

Remember, MASS WINS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (GRAPHIC)

MASS WINS ***GRAPHIC***CLICK W/ CAUTION

...

[abirken]

JP wrote: MASS WINS ***GRAPHIC***CLICK W/ CAUTION[/b][/u][/url]

...


OUCH. I WAS WARNED BUT CURIOUS. Can I take it back now? :ne_nau:

[JP]

abirken wrote: [OUCH. I WAS WARNED BUT CURIOUS. Can I take it back now? :ne_nau:
Can't take reality back :mrgreen:

[greyhair biker]

This is a hard subject to address because my feelings run both ways. I realize that despite the fact that I as a cyclist by law have certain rights that give me the right to travel on the road, I must as responsibly and yield to the LARGER MASS of the motorized vehicle. I can expect the law to protect me, the lawyers to fight for me and all people to 'start seeing bicycles' BUT I am the one who has to watch out for me. When I ride the road I have to assume a certain level of danger - anything can and will hurt me...it's what I teach to kids and older riders every chance I get. When I ride the road to and from work I take my life in my hands by riding I- 80....yes, I said interstate 80. WYDOT says it is legal, WYHP says it is legal and I can ride the shoulder anywhere I want in the state...if I am crazy enough to try it. On the same note, there are places in the Salt Lake valley that I wouldnt be caught riding on.
On the other argument, I as a motorist am not going to see every cyclist that 'assumes' that I can see him simply because I am looking in his general direction. I am intimately aware of people on bicycles and I don't see them all the time...and I hate it when a cyclist is arrogant enough to think he isnt going to get hurt if he swerves out in front of me.

Even though this article is mountain bike related, the legal issues it brings to bear DO NOT DIFFERENTIATE between road and mountain bike. Everyone suffers/pays the price in the end. If you get the chance the IMBA website is the best I have found in bicycle advocacy.
http://www.imba.com/resources/trail_issues/you_play_you_pay.html

[moabfool]

JP wrote: Paying the price is the cyclist? Paying the price is that kid on the bike, even though he was at fault or the arrogant adult? Those are thought provoking? I'll give ya thought provoking. Have you seen a cyclist struck by a car? Have you seen a kid struck by a car? People think it's a little tap and everything is OK. BS! Head trauma, loss of limbs, paralysis, coma and then the mental trauma the operator of the vehicle and family of the loved one hit...Come on. You make it sound like getting hit is noble and you're some kind of super hero. Here's a little clip of reality, watch closely.

Okay, let's keep the discussion apples to apples. Comparing a kid on a $120 Huffy to an adult on a $2500+ carbon fiber roadie is like comparing sticks to diamonds. There's huge difference between the kid and the adult, the most major being the ability to reason through and accept consequences. If I hit a kid, even if it was the kid's fault, I would feel horrible (if that even begins to describe it). Adults are supposed to watch out for all children and keep them safe. If I hit an adult I know I'd feel bad, but not on nearly the scale of hitting the kid especially if the cyclist/pedestrian were at fault, mostly because adults are supposed to take care of themselves (that includes not hitting cyclists while blabing on a cell phone).

Of course there are some adults that need looking after too. I don't know how many people I've pulled back out of an intersection just after they've stepped in front of a speeding bus or taxi. Yah, I've put in some time in the NYC. It's where I learned how to ride a bicycle on the road. BTW, I felt way safer riding in NYC than I do in Utah.

I raised this question on KSL and got "troll"ed like crazy. I'm making no judgement here, but ask yourself this: Which is worse, a parent without their child or a child without their parent? Food for thought.

A confession: I roll through stop signs. I've come close to being hit once and I totally deserved it. I thought it was a 4-way stop and I would've had the right-of-way anyway, but it wasn't and I didn't. Luckily, both the motorist and I were quick and never would've hit had the other not stopped, but we both did stop. Still, it was too close for comfort. To the motorist's credit he was very polite about it and let me think about what I'd done without saying anything to me; a far worse punishment than a toungue lashing to be sure. I'd bet he's a cyclist too.

I always stop when another vehicle has the right-of-way and I always wait for stop lights. It's frustrating, but I don't see all cyclists doing that.

[moabfool]

One more thing, I hit a car when I was just learning how to ride a bike. The neighbor brought me home after I side-swiped him while he was pulling out of his driveway. Of course nobody wore helmets back then and I got my bell rung pretty good (might explain a few things about me :haha: ). It must've been a pretty good shot because my dad said I looked kinda dazed. I don't remember ever hitting his car or being escorted home, and I remember most of my good wrecks from that age. A split-second earlier and I would've been under the tires. My fault, but I can't imagine how that poor man would've felt. My point: as a child I had no concept of the danger. Heck, as a teen driver I had no concept of the danger 'till I got rear-ended and got whiplash. Now, as an adult, I can assume risk.