Bogley

qedcook · Joined: 23 May 2008 Posts: 37 Location: SLC, UT

Is preserving the nature of a canyon(ie, no bolts) worth the needless risk of human life?

Richard Barron · Joined: 09 Jul 2005 Posts: 1184 Location: Byng, OK, USA

qedcook wrote: Is preserving the nature of a canyon(ie, no bolts) worth the needless risk of human life?

If you can't enjoy canyons without damaging them, you have no business there.

stefan · Joined: 09 Jan 2006 Posts: 4660 Location: somewhere

perhaps you'd like to start this thread in the canyoneering section.
in any case the bolt/preservation issue is not as cut and dry as you lay out.

welcome to the forum.

marc olivares · Joined: 19 Jun 2005 Posts: 614 Location: sugarhouse

qedcook wrote: Is preserving the nature of a canyon(ie, no bolts) worth the needless risk of human life?

yes...

rockgremlin · Joined: 09 Dec 2004 Posts: 4076 Location: Hotel California

qedcook wrote: Is preserving the nature of a canyon(ie, no bolts) worth the needless risk of human life?

OH BOY......here we go again.... :lol8:

I agree with Stefan here in that this issue isn't as black and white as you put it. In MOST cases, bolts are unnecessary (probably 95%). There are some instances where bolts are needed, but those are usually emergency situations.

For some reason there is a strong correlation between those with little canyoneering experience and those who like to use bolts.

qedcook · Joined: 23 May 2008 Posts: 37 Location: SLC, UT

In response to rockgremlin.

I have tons of canyon experience and I have never placed a bolt in any canyon I have ever been to, climbing or canyoneering.

I agree that natural anchoring can be safely used 95% of the the time, but I'm talking about the other 5%.

rockgremlin · Joined: 09 Dec 2004 Posts: 4076 Location: Hotel California

qedcook wrote: I have tons of canyon experience and I have never placed a bolt in any canyon I have ever been to, climbing or canyoneering.

I agree that natural anchoring can be safely used 95% of the the time, but I'm talking about the other 5%.

Well then, looks like we're seeing eye to eye on the issue. I think just about everyone will admit that there are special circumstances where bolts may be required. Heck even the anti-bolt heavy hitters in the canyoneering community recommend taking a bolt kit along in X and R rated canyons.

Oh ya...welcome to the forum!

qedcook · Joined: 23 May 2008 Posts: 37 Location: SLC, UT

I know I'm going to hit a soft spot with people by bringing this canyon up but what does everyone think about Mind Bender? I've never done it but I've seen the pictures of the anchors (who hasn't) and it has to make you wonder if one of those anchors are ever going to give out on someone.

rockgremlin · Joined: 09 Dec 2004 Posts: 4076 Location: Hotel California

You mean that final rappel? It does look a little dicey rapping from that deadman, but it's held out just fine so far. The trick with that is to double-check and/or rebuild/rebury it if in doubt.

From what I hear, that final rap has been bolted recently anyways...

stefan · Joined: 09 Jan 2006 Posts: 4660 Location: somewhere

qedcook wrote: I know I'm going to hit a soft spot with people by bringing this canyon up but what does everyone think about Mind Bender? I've never done it but I've seen the pictures of the anchors (who hasn't) and it has to make you wonder if one of those anchors are ever going to give out on someone.

if the anchor is constructed/inspected/maintained appropriately then it should work. and as long as there is a sufficient abundance of boulders in that section of canyon, then, IMO, there is no need to even entertain the idea of needing a bolt.

mindbender should be kept au natural.

in regards to the bolt, i hope folks realize that it may not be there in the long term and should come prepared to inspect/construct the anchor.

ratagonia · Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 3:36 pm Post subject:

qedcook wrote: I know I'm going to hit a soft spot with people by bringing this canyon up but what does everyone think about Mind Bender? I've never done it but I've seen the pictures of the anchors (who hasn't) and it has to make you wonder if one of those anchors are ever going to give out on someone.

I TOTALLY AGREE, Q.E.D., those bolts in Mind Bender look totally bogus and are an accident waiting to happen! As a service to the community, they should be removed as soon as someone with the saavy to do so well can get in there.

The geometry in MB is particularly favorable, and there is certainly plenty of deadman building material at the bottom of the rappel, so all but the least-competent should have no problem building a deadman in this location.

Tom

ratagonia · Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 3:50 pm Post subject:

rockgremlin wrote:
Well then, looks like we're seeing eye to eye on the issue. I think just about everyone will admit that there are special circumstances where bolts may be required. Heck even the anti-bolt heavy hitters in the canyoneering community recommend taking a bolt kit along in X and R rated canyons.

Oh ya...welcome to the forum!

Uh, like whom?

The difficulties found in R and X canyons (at least, SLOT-R and SLOT-X canyons) are rarely of a nature that a bolt kit would be useful at all. There are a few canyons where I would carry a bolt kit, but most of those involve long drops (>200 feet expected) with uncertain anchors in *new* canyons; in most *new* canyons, we bring tools (lots of webbing, potshots, omnisling, a strong team with varied skills) and experience to the task, with a zeal for solving the problems, leaving minimal stuff behind and without placing bolts.

There is NEVER the suggestion of compromising personal safety. I am, personally, very aware that what we do has substantial risk, and that ALL the risks that we can manage must be managed. I do not rappel off anchors that are not 100% secure (knock on wood).

Some have argued that by NOT leaving solid, reliable, three-gued-in-bolt anchors at every 5 foot drop, we are being irresponsible with the lives of the clueless noobs who will descend the canyon afterward, drawn by my beautiful pictures on the Latest Rave. This is not a viewpoint I share, in fact, I have an opposite claim: by installing bolts at drops where they are not 'needed', we will communicate to C. Noob that the solution to the problem is to place bolts. C. Noob is ill-served by this message as: 1. bolts are very hard to place in soft rock; and 2. there are plenty of drops out there that surprisingly do not already have bolts installed. C. Noob is better served (and safer) by learning how to build anchors in the wild using primitive tools (webbing, potshots).

That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it! (Unless, Q.E.D., you are a sock puppet of Brian Cabe, and have just successfully chummed me).

Tom

rockgremlin · Joined: 09 Dec 2004 Posts: 4076 Location: Hotel California

ratagonia wrote: with uncertain anchors in *new* canyons; in most *new* canyons,

This is what I meant to say...assuming the worst case scenario for canyons with first descents.

ratagonia · Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 9:04 pm Post subject:

rockgremlin wrote: ratagonia wrote: with uncertain anchors in *new* canyons; in most *new* canyons,

This is what I meant to say...assuming the worst case scenario for canyons with first descents.

To clarify: we rarely bring a bolt kit, even when doing new canyons. ONLY when we anticipate long drops with uncertain anchors, where there is the possibility of being in the middle of a long drop on a small ledge (or less) and having to fabricate an anchor (for which a bolt kit is pretty much the only solution). We generally bring 300' ropes on this kind of expedition, to lessen the chance of this kind of misadventure. Placing a bolt or two would definitely be considered a "taint", but considerably less of a "taint" than being stuck and requiring rescue (if available).

Tom

shaggy125 · Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 12:28 am Post subject:

I personally think the deadman in mindbender is sufficient, the rats nest of backups/equalizers seems to mainly be because the rappel is long, and therefore people tend to think it needs to be backed up 4 or 5 times "just in case." As long as people inspect the main anchor they should be good. Back it up with meat for everyone but the last man, if it doesn't budge for anyone else, what are the chances of it failing for the last man? I've been canyoneering with Tom a fair amount lately, even in some "new" unexplored canyons. It's pretty impressive what can be done with an omnisling and some potshots, we were even able to ghost one canyon on our last trip without compromising safety. Potshots are my new favorite canyoneering tool and if you become an expert at using them like Tom is, they are a very valuable tool. They can be used to build retreivable anchors, used to back up sketchy anchors, used to haul rocks from the bottom of a rap for anchor building, and even used as booties around camp when backpacking (this is an expert only technique), oh yea and they are great for escaping potholes.