Bogley

[Brian in SLC]

Gutpiler_Utahn wrote: Agreed. Penetration or not, a .45 ACP delivers a lot of kenetic energy and unless the bear is intent on eating you or protecting its cubs, it's gonna feel it and likely decide this gnat isn't worth the effort.

Nah, a .45 ACP does NOT deliver any where near the kinetic energy of even a .357 magnum. Remember, KE = 1/2 m X velocity squared. The mass of the bullet is a player, but the square of the velocity is a WAY bigger player.

Pretty common to find ammo even for a .357 magnum that exceeds a 1000 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle. Not as common for a .45 ACP to exceed 500 foot pounds (hence the hunting restrictions on handguns based on muzzle energy). And, when you shoot a shorter barrel, you get even less energy (for the compact folks out there). A short barrel can really effect the energy a bullet has. It goes down by the square of the velocity, so, is effected by a shorter barrel which won't have a high a velocity of a longer barrel.

A gun that makes a noise might be effective bear protection, kinda like a fire cracker. What would be interesting though, is what a wounded bear would do. Might be worse than a scared bear? Dunno. Hopefully something most of us avoid forever.

Anyone read, "The Year Long Day"? Norwegian polar bear hunter who chronicals a year of bear hunting in the arctic. One of the situations he ends up in, is, he's in a cabin, its cold and dark out, and he's pulled his down sleeping bag up over his head and it has one of them draw strings which he accidently puts a knot in to keep the bag tight around his face. A bear breaks into the cabin, looking for food. Reminded me of the Gary Larsen cartoon of the polar bears shaking an igloo and exclaiming, "crunchy on the outside, soft and chewy in the middle". Anyhoo, he wrigglin' around in his bag, trying desparately to get the cord untied, and the bear takes a swipe at the sleeping bag, then gets amused by the down feathers in the air, and starts playing with the floating feathers. Gives the guy enough time to effect an escape, into the storage room where his gun (a huge 8mm or some such) is. But, as the bear is charging him and pinning him in the storage space, there isn't enough room to level the gun and get a shot off.

Pretty amazing book, with some super close calls. Very recommended reading if you can find it.

Cheers,

-Brian in SLC

[Brian in SLC]

JP wrote: Black bears at night or day, I have pics of them in the day. Again. Night shots and placement, up close, not a problem. What do you think Law Enforcement does at night? Hang up the gun? Low light, up close and personal is the environment some of these guys work in, they'll hit you and a bear. Without question. Comes down to practice. If you're using your sights at close range, you're right, you might not be defending yourself in time. Who uses sights in tight combat type quarters anyways, dead victims. Again, it's all in how you train. Reactionary, muscle memory. I don't even have the time to explain this, other than, it works. Real life, it works. Even documented where I work.

No doubt that kind of training would be mucho beneficial in any scenario.

But...the most likely scenario involving a potential fatality with regard to a black bear, would be the one at night, where you're the food source (or the candy bar, soda pop, toothpaste). So, there you are, ala that poor kid in American Fork Canyon last year, in the tent, probably asleep. A predatory bear attacks. I just think the odds that someone will effectively kill a bear in that scenario are pretty low. They'd go up a TON with the type of training you reference above, but...realistically, I dunno. Better'n nothing.

It does no good to relate these types of scary bear stories on the 'net. Best left for a really dark nights, around a lonely campfire, many miles away from the car... Ha ha.

CT? I might be in your neck of the woods in a week or three. Hoping to climb at Ragged Mountain...

Carrying a .500 Smith? Anyone see that emergency kit thing that Smith put out a year or two back? Was a waterproof box, .500 Smith, bright orange grips. Wild stuff. I can't imagine how much that rig would boot. Local store has one here. Crazy.

Wow, found a link: http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=11101&storeId=10001&productId=49906&langId=-1&parent_category_rn=15702&isFirearm=Y

Smith & Wesson Model 500, 2 3/4" Barrel with Bright Orange Hogue® recoil reducing grip
Waterproof Storm® Case
Blast Match™ Firestarter and WetFire tender
Saber Cut™ Saw with fabric sheath
Jet Scream™ whistle
Star Flash™ signal mirror
Polaris® compass
Two MPI Mylar Space® Emergency Blankets
Smith & Wesson Extreme Ops Liner Lock Folding Knife with Black Sheath
"Bear Attacks of the Century - True Stories of Courage and Survival" book by Larry Mueller and Marguerite Reiss

Too darn funny they include a book to scare the beejeesus out of ya.

Spent two weeks in the backcountry on Kodiak Island a few years ago. Let me tell ya, a .44 mag Smith Mountain Gun seems mighty small... Had a number of very close encounters. Neat place. BIG bears. Fish and Game folks carry a shotgun for noise, and a .375 H&H if that doesn't work. With practise, I could toss 300 grain solids in a pie tin at close range...who was I kiddin'?

Fun stuff. Better chance of gettin' killed by a bicycle in a national park, though...(dumb stat I read somewhere).

Back to the .45 ACP discussion. A number of years ago I handloaded a 260 grain long colt bullet in some .45 ACP cases. Fed like a dream (and talk about yer flying ashtray). So...I...uhh, tried it out on some critter to see how it would behave in a more real case scenario. Penetration was very, very poor. Just not enough energy. Based on that, specifically, and other stuff, I just think there's no way a .45 ACP would kill a bear with any reliability.

My bet is there is a fair bit of testing that the military has done on the .45. Poor goats, sheep, dogs, etc. A friend who had his med school paid for by the military got to practise gunshot trauma this way. Ugh. But, pretty realistic.

I remember when the Utah Fish and Game sold all their .357 Magnums when they converted over to a 9mm (?). There was a fair numbef of them that were bummed they'd have to dispatch critters that had been woulded by cars with a much inferior caliber. Yikes.

Cheers,

-Brian in SLC

[Glockguy]

You could attend this course:

http://www.gunsite.com/courses/rifle.html

Predator Defense

Gunsite's "Back-Country Firearms Skills" class can prepare you for an unwelcomed encounter with predatory or aggressive bears, cats and other large animals in the wilderness. This intensive five day course is NOT a hunting class. The class focuses on preparing individuals for unintentional and potential deadly encounters with dangerous animals.

Students will work with both handguns and longarms, learning to manipulate both in practical field scenarios. Topics range from working and living with firearms in the field, practical ballistics for up-close defensive shooting, pre-emptive strategies and tactics, low light and night defense elements, transitioning between handguns and long arms, group defense skills, carry positions and vehicle/vessel/stock animal mounts and more.

Cost: $1600

Duration: 5 days

Prerequisite: None

Ammunition: 400 rounds of pistol ammo, 300 rounds of long gun ammo (slugs if shotguns are to be used), 25 rounds of buckshot. Ammunition management devices are suggested.

[JP]

Brian in SLC wrote: CT? I might be in your neck of the woods in a week or three. Hoping to climb at Ragged Mountain...
New Hampshire's? That's about three hours from me. Not a bad drive at all. New Hampshire gets the :2thumbs: :mrgreen:

[Brian in SLC]

JP wrote: Brian in SLC wrote: CT? I might be in your neck of the woods in a week or three. Hoping to climb at Ragged Mountain...
New Hampshire's? That's about three hours from me. Not a bad drive at all.

Even closer...

http://raggedmtn.org/pn/

Just south of Hartford.

Cheers,

-Brian in SLC

[BruteForce]

I'm thinking jimflint decided that we just hijacked his thread enough.

Guy was just looking for help in using his shiney new .45ACP and we all give him guidance on how (or not) to defend against a bear in the woods! :roll:

[JP]

Brian in SLC wrote: Even closer...

http://raggedmtn.org/pn/

Just south of Hartford.

Cheers,

-Brian in SLC
I never knew that was it's name. :mrgreen: I saw the picture and I said that looks a lot like Middletown/ Southington area. Southington's formation like that was always called, Southington Mountain. There's only a few places in our State with red rock like that. Since that's the case, it's only about 20 or so minutes from me. Let me know and I'll head over there when you're here. Those formations are basically Between I-84 and I-91 on I-691. (Middletown, Meriden & Southington)