Bogley

Bo_Beck · Joined: 02 Dec 2005 Posts: 703 Location: Southern Utah

:five:

Bo_Beck · Joined: 02 Dec 2005 Posts: 703 Location: Southern Utah

Maybe we can stay dry if they don't drop us! Birdseye view of the "swimming holes" in Pine Creek! See them skinnydippers down there!? :lol8:

tanya · Joined: 18 Oct 2005 Posts: 5480 Location: Utah

rcwild wrote: tanya wrote: Ouch! Tom Jones should hardly be considered a student!

Depends how high or low you set your standards.

Okay... then I have to ask about those standards.

So tell us what you are talking about Rich. Tom is perhaps the best known person in the canyoneering world and is considered an expert by just about everyone. Is it just that he works for ZAC or is there something we don't know? So far, as much as I like you Rich, the reasons you have given for your hatred of others looks irrational to me. What is wrong with other canyoneers in this tiny community stepping forward to become leaders? Each has their own personality and will bring in various people. Some like Shane's style, some Tom's, some Bo's, some others and of course some yours -- it's a diverse world and it should have diverse leaders.

Shane, Lee, Tom... how many others do you hate because they step out of the pattern you have dictated? Am I in the ball park? Is this why you chastise them?

Is it an argument over technique? Tom and Shane are both brilliant engineers, Tom from MIT, Shane makes... what is it... a half-million a year doing some very difficult projects that require exceptional engineering skills! I think both men deserve quite a bit of respect for their exploration and various talents which of course have helped them to excell and lead in the sport of canyoneering. They might not do everything exactly like you, or sit in your class room, but these are brilliant men and they should not be stifled like children and made to obey when they probably understand the mechanics of how things work better than just about anyone. What about this other canyoneering group? What is it ATS? You attack them as well and from what Bo tells me they are very skilled at what they do.

These men are all leaders in the canyoneering world and should not be thought of as students -- I don't know if Shane and Lee or others were your students, but you did mention that Tom was. The world is full of examples where a student will pass a teacher in every way. I am not saying that is happening here, but a teacher should be proud when that happens rather than attacking the student.

I may be totally off base but this is what I see you trying to do. Am I wrong?

Can you give us a rational reason why you feel how you do about these men? Are there others too that you dislike as you do these three? I would like those reasons to go away and all of you become friends or at least be nice to each other. I have wanted that for years now.

I don't want to hear that they don't live up to your perfect morals because I doubt if we took a close look your morals, as well as mine and everyone's in this group, we would find no one is perfect.

tanya · Joined: 18 Oct 2005 Posts: 5480 Location: Utah

Scott Card wrote: Thump Thump Thump.... went the chests. Or you could learn from me and then teach me on our second trip. If we survive you will be treated to a dutch oven meal that will surpass any calorie expenditure from the day's hike. Then we will talk about our adventures and then we will re- hash the hike again and again on the way to the next canyons we do... Oh ya, I don't charge any thing and I only have two rules. Have fun and don't die. I don't want to be on the news.

Actually, chest thumping, egos, bad blood aside, I appreciate the comments from everyone. I tend to sift and mix and match for what fits me and then I ask a really talented feller to go with me. :haha:

My kind of partner! :five:

tanya · Joined: 18 Oct 2005 Posts: 5480 Location: Utah

Bo_Beck wrote: moab mark wrote: hey you could learn from me but I don't know *&$#$$#. B :2thumbs: ut i just purchased a brand new cordless hilti hammer drill and i am going to start putting in bolts everywhere i go. When you split the battery from the drill it's not to heavy and man is it mean. :2thumbs:
Mark

This wouldn't be you would it??? :ne_nau: :roflol:

Hey Mark! How goes it? Find any places as cool as Canaan Mountain lately?

Bo_Beck · Joined: 02 Dec 2005 Posts: 703 Location: Southern Utah

tanya wrote: Bo_Beck wrote: moab mark wrote: hey you could learn from me but I don't know *&$#$$#. B :2thumbs: ut i just purchased a brand new cordless hilti hammer drill and i am going to start putting in bolts everywhere i go. When you split the battery from the drill it's not to heavy and man is it mean. :2thumbs:
Mark

This wouldn't be you would it??? :ne_nau: :roflol:

Hey Mark! How goes it? Find any places as cool as Canaan Mountain lately?

Wrong guy I think Tanya? The Mark you refer to (the one pictured) goes by the handle Lil'Bear I think? Not sure he is a member of Bogley?

rcwild · Joined: 19 Aug 2007 Posts: 96 Location: Cedar City Utah

Hate? Huh? I don't hate anyone. Not even my ex-wife.

I considered Tom a friend for a long time. I won't get into the reasons that I no longer consider him a friend, but I don't hate him.

I do not believe Tom is doing anyone any favors by playing down the forces generated on a guided rappel. Bo's message is the appropriate one. Loads can be tremendous. Don't use a guided rappel unless you fully understand the forces involved and can adequately evaluate the strength of anchors. Even then, take steps to minimize the forces.

Tom's message is to go ahead and use them, even if just for fun. Heck, even at an angle of 45 degrees, the loads generated will ONLY be around 300%. Ignore the potential for greater forces. Everything you need to know about guided rappels is in that little sketch he drew. Print it out and take it with you into the canyon. And to back up his reckless advice, we get the standard "Don't question me, I have an engineering degree from MIT."

That's BS. If an instructor is going to give advice about advanced techniques on the internet, he should consider the audience and error on the side of caution - like Bo did.

The ACA has a vested interest in this for two reasons: (1) techniques that we teach for specific situations are being misused and (2) Tom is an ACA certified guide (not instructor).

Techniques being misused include blocks, retrievable anchors, auto blocks and guided rappels. We teach a wide range of techniques for the "tool box" and do our best to impress upon students when each is appropriate and when it is not. Unfortunately, some of the "why to" and "when to" information is lost when the techniques are spread, especially over the internet. Canyons are incredibly diverse. A technique that works well to solve a problem in one type of canyon can kill you if used in a different type of canyon.

I could give specific instances where Tom and others have taken it upon themselves to modify techniques taught by the ACA that resulted in widespread misuse. There have been a few accidents and incidents over the past couple years that involved the misuse (and overuse) of techniques taught by the ACA. Some have been critical of the techniques themselves instead of focusing on the misuse of the techniques.

For the most part, I believe Tom can do a good job teaching the "how to". He has a long way to go teaching the "why to" or "when to". As long as he is an ACA certified guide, he needs to be conscious of how his instruction and advice will be interpreted by canyoneers and how it might reflect on the ACA if incorrect instruction or advice results in an accident or incident. People will assume that if taught by an ACA guide, it must be an ACA endorsed technique. Tom is teaching and promoting things that are not endorsed by the ACA and would not be taught or promoted by an ACA certified instructor.

Curious about other people on my "hate list"? Like I said, I don't hate anybody. My "don't trust or respect list" is short - Shane Burrows, Lee Eismann and Darren Jefferies.

Iceaxe · Joined: 07 Mar 2005 Posts: 7628 Location: Local Bordello

rcwild wrote: My "don't trust or respect list" is short - Shane Burrows, Lee Eismann and Darren Jefferies.

Strange how everyone on that list knows where Rich buried the bodies.... I’m sure that’s just a freak coincidence. :haha:

:popcorn:

CarpeyBiggs · Joined: 18 Mar 2007 Posts: 1722 Location: Fairbanks, AK

Rich, I've never met you personally, and would like to give you the benefit of the doubt, but your posts are vindictive and mean. You should try being nice. You know, people might be more willing to hand over their money for your merit badges...

Iceaxe · Joined: 07 Mar 2005 Posts: 7628 Location: Local Bordello

Bo_Beck wrote: These folks at Bogley are my friends! (no I don't want a Kiss Shane :lol8: )

You sure..... you don't know what you are missing!!! I do this little special thing with my tongue. :feelgood:

:roflol: :lol8: :roflol:

moab mark · Joined: 23 Sep 2007 Posts: 79

Bo,
No that's not me in the pic. I made the comment about the drill because Rich on his website that seems to be on it's death bed due to the amount of posts on there now a days. But back to the drill, he answered a post I ask him with his usual type of reponse of arrogance just use bolts. So I went out and got me a new drill for bolting. So everyone do not start complaining about my bolts everywhere.:rockon: But seriously Carpey hit it right on the head. I would glady pay to take some classes from ACA but the attitude of mightier than all is getting old.
In regards to Tom, the one time I had the oportunity to go canyoneering with him, he was totally patient and his teaching style was excellent. My buddy and I left feeling that we had learned alot and had FUN. Anytime I have personally emailed him with a question his response have been very helpful. But there is obviously a serious problem that Rich has with controlling his sport.
Mark

Randi · Joined: 08 May 2007 Posts: 325 Location: The OC

CarpeyBiggs wrote: Rich, I've never met you personally, and would like to give you the benefit of the doubt, but your posts are vindictive and mean. You should try being nice. You know, people might be more willing to hand over their money for your merit badges...

Not to derail this thread or anything...but I LOVE your avatar Carpey. That rock looks like an angel's wing. It's beautiful!

Hope you're having fun in Alaska.
I wanna go to Alaska too someday!
Send pictures! :mrgreen:

skianddive · Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 2:39 pm Post subject:

Iceaxe wrote: rcwild wrote: My "don't trust or respect list" is short - Shane Burrows, Lee Eismann and Darren Jefferies.

Strange how everyone on that list knows where Rich buried the bodies.... I’m sure that’s just a freak coincidence. :haha:
Gosh, I'm honored to be in such company. But, yup, I do know where they're buried - and I know there are more coming because Rich continues to dig himself holes.

skianddive · Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 2:47 pm Post subject:

moab mark wrote: I made the comment about the drill because Rich on his website that seems to be on its death bed due to the amount of posts on there now a days.
Pretty soon.......

Randi · Joined: 08 May 2007 Posts: 325 Location: The OC

skianddive wrote: Iceaxe wrote: rcwild wrote: My "don't trust or respect list" is short - Shane Burrows, Lee Eismann and Darren Jefferies.

Strange how everyone on that list knows where Rich buried the bodies.... I’m sure that’s just a freak coincidence. :haha:
Gosh, I'm honored to be in such company. But, yup, I do know where they're buried - and I know there are more coming because Rich continues to dig himself holes.

Lee, you're one of the most unpleasant individuals I've ever had the displeasure of meeting. Doesn't the negativity with you EVER stop?