Bogley

[oldno7]

Having thought about it I still go back to my last statement on my first post. Our next idea was a pack-raft, I feel 80-90% sure that would work.

Just for the record--I would drill a 100 holes in a life or death type situation if needed. I could care less about anyones ethic while someones life is at risk.

The key element will always be that the minute you drop into the water you have started your hourglass flowing, you have very little time to accomplish your intended results.

Shane--I know what you said was not a personal attack on me but your comments are arrogant.
It's always good to have confidence in your ability but it is completely arrogant to think no canyon has an obstacle you can't conquer. If your whole group is trained in the techniques I mentioned at first they will have a good chance,if they are not someone will likely die! I wish you the best and I have no hard feelings.

[Iceaxe]

oldno7 wrote: Shane--I know what you said was not a personal attack on me but your comments are arrogant.
It's always good to have confidence in your ability but it is completely arrogant to think no canyon has an obstacle you can't conquer.

I think you might be looking at my posts out of context or maybe without my complete background....

In real life I'm an engineer and I really don't know of an obstacle that can not be conquer if you are willing to spend enough time, money and resources. Heck... we have put a man on the moon....

Now some chest thumping... I have personally designed several power planets, oil refineries, dams and mines.... Today I'm working on a project to plug the #2 intake tower on Lake Mead so some repairs and modifications can be made to the penstocks.... understand that this intake is currently under a couple hundred feet of water and we have to float the plug into place and remove it when finished.....

So.... from my point of view.... engineering your way through a canyon is trivial.... if you are willing to commit enough time, money and resources.

And yes, sometimes my posts come across as arrogant to some.... it's not my intention, but it's who I am.... My apologies if you took it that way. No harm intended.

:blahblah:

[Scott Card]

nelsonccc wrote: I always carry heads in my bag when I'm doing a route i've not done before. They are remarkably easy to place and a lot stronger than you would think. The idea is that where there's a divot or tiny crack where a hook or anything else won't work. You can generally place a head.



Interesting. Have you ever tried these things in sandstone? I haven't so I am just asking. I remember the first time I tried to use hooks in sandstone and I was only about 6 feet off the deck up Spanish Fork canyon and my second placement blew out a chunk of stone about the diameter of a football. I decided then and there I didn't like hooking on natural features with sandstone. Any experience with these things in sandstone? Anyone?

[Scott Card]

Iceaxe wrote:
In real life I'm an engineer and I really don't know of an obstacle that can not be conquer if you are willing to spend enough time, money and resources. Heck... we have put a man on the moon....


:blahblah:

You forgot football coach, stubborn Ute fan and accomplished trash talker.... :lol8:

[Iceaxe]

Scott Card wrote: and accomplished trash talker.... :lol8:

I do have a serious weakness for trash talking.....

In sports it's amazing how many people will fold under the pressure of nothing but trash talk, even at the professional level. I won many a race before the green flag ever dropped.... once you are in a competitors head you completely own them.

:five:

[tanya]

Scott Card wrote: Iceaxe wrote:
In real life I'm an engineer and I really don't know of an obstacle that can not be conquer if you are willing to spend enough time, money and resources. Heck... we have put a man on the moon....


:blahblah:

You forgot football coach, stubborn Ute fan and accomplished trash talker.... :lol8:


There you are! You were the last person tagged on the tag thread!

[tanya]

Iceaxe wrote:
I think you might be looking at my posts out of context or maybe without my complete background....

In real life I'm an engineer and I really don't know of an obstacle that can not be conquer if you are willing to spend enough time, money and resources. Heck... we have put a man on the moon....

Now some chest thumping... I have personally designed several power planets, oil refineries, dams and mines.... Today I'm working on a project to plug the #2 intake tower on Lake Mead so some repairs and modifications can be made to the penstocks.... understand that this intake is currently under a couple hundred feet of water and we have to float the plug into place and remove it when finished.....

So.... from my point of view.... engineering your way through a canyon is trivial.... if you are willing to commit enough time, money and resources.

And yes, sometimes my posts come across as arrogant to some.... it's not my intention, but it's who I am.... My apologies if you took it that way. No harm intended.

:blahblah:

:hail2thechief: :hail2thechief: :hail2thechief:

And he can even handle his hot young stripper wife and do all that work while spending 90% of his time on Bogley! He is a god! :rockon:

[Scott Card]

tanya wrote: There you are! You were the last person tagged on the tag thread!

HUH? What thread? I have had to seriously cut back due to work issues. I have mostly been hanging out only in the canyoneering section. Besides, I have "NG, NT, FP and GP" written on my arm. (No gives, no takes, flea proof and girl proof" It worked for me 35 years ago.) :haha:

[ratagonia]

oldno7 wrote: And one last note--We had a guy go hypothermic which made retreat a necessity. Our next option was a pack raft and trying to launch off that but we had no time.

Which points to ==> Very important to manage energy and function, who is in the water and who is not, eating, drinking, staying warm. Which is why it is important to have a plan, and a backup plan, and a plan for what happens when people start getting cold. Going Back UP the rope to the stance and getting warm is an important part of the plan.

Throw a boat anchor from the ledge. Out in a jiffy. Every problem has a solution. The question is: what to carry, in general, which will get you out of the surprise pothole, where exitting back upcanyon is not an option. My choices are: 2 potshots. Then a hook/bolt kit, which consists of 2 BD Talon Hooks, a BD Alpine Aider, a light hammer, a Petzl Pecker and 3/8" drill. Usually toss a couple bolts in there, just in case, and the wrench, blow tube, brush.

That said, even with holes in place, I consider it a "taint" to use the hooks on drilled holes. I certainly consider it a major taint to use the hammer and drill to make new holes. If the old holes don't work, use the drill to clean and deepen the old holes, no hammer required.

Then again, that first big keeper in Imlay, I almost always use a hook in the old holes. Throwing bags works poorly as the runout is flat and sandy. next time.......

In most cases, I give myself 1 hour of trying other things (mostly pot shots) before using the hooks. Depends on the time of day and how the group is doing, etc... And how pure I am feeling at the moment. At 11 pm in the last stretch of Imlay, I plop in and use the hooks and climb the holes, no problemo.

I have not found other hooks useful. I have not found natural edges in potholes that are usable. You could maybe plop a copperhead into Kelsey's GPick holes, but...

Tom

[Iceaxe]

ratagonia wrote: Going Back UP the rope to the stance and getting warm is an important part of the plan.

Not being able to get up the rope with a broken arm was what ultimately killed the lady in Knotted Rope last summer... http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7830

:popcorn:

[Brian in SLC]

ratagonia wrote: At 11 pm in the last stretch of Imlay, I plop in and use the hooks and climb the holes, no problemo.
I have not found other hooks useful. I have not found natural edges in potholes that are usable. You could maybe plop a copperhead into Kelsey's GPick holes, but...

The happy hooker with the Pika Ibis hook worked pretty well for Stevie B on I seem to dimly recall that first keeper pothole. Didn't really find an edge to hook on, per se, but, more of a slightly slanting seam (ended up probably hooking on a subtle change in the seam angle). Quite amazing that it worked at all, but, it did (and I seem to recall Steve 'bout puked just lookin' at it).

I've used 'heads in sandstone, in Moab, if I recall, on an aid climb. Really depends on the placement and the rock, specifically. In general, they really don't work much at all in softer sandstone especially in the same configuration seam that would hold in a harder rock with bigger crystals, like granite. See Peeler Direct in Little Cottonwood Canyon outside SLC for what is possible on granite. I think there's still a couple of mashies fixed on that route. And, truth be told, one of the long time guidebook authors and first ascensionists here in the Wasatch routinely carries and places them, enjoying the "authenticity" air they lend to certain ascents. Ie, if it had a bashie, it was a "good" adventure.

Ahhh...memory...now I recall where I used a head in Sandtone. T'was in Arches, on the backside of Sheep Rock. Yikes. Darn thing worked, too, which really surprised me. My partner cleaned it by just pulling up on it.

Kinda easy to make if you have a swager and the right size wire rope, etc.

I don't consider heads (copper head, aluma-heads, mashies, bashies) for exploration type stuff in the desert. They mangle the rock as bad as a drill bit, but, the placement doesn't look as artifical (another "non-natural" technique!). Head placements, unless you really leave it well welded and fixed, usually get pretty blown out. Not a functional thing for the next folks sometimes. Where as, a small, drilled hole is pretty function for the next party, if need be. Last resort, to be sure.

Does make me wonder about a small blob of lead with a wire in it. You could wrap solder around the loop on a rivet hanger (small loop of wire rope) and my bet is it might work for a short up out of a hole. Hmmm. A few years back a feller who was getting way into aid experiemented with a bunch of different stuff to see what would work ok. His main focus was replacing the bashie on the Black Peeler Direct (which had blown on someone). He wanted to represent the the feeling of insecurity on that placement at the same time having a solution that would "stick around" for awhile too. Was pretty interesting. I seem to recall a bunch of pictures he posted on his research on rockclimbing.com. Might be worth a look see.

-Brian in SLC

[trackrunner]

A current picture of this pothole was posted in the ACA form, post #7.
It is hard, as stated, to tell the gap between the water and the lip.

[skianddive]

trackrunner wrote: A current picture of this pothole was posted in the ACA form, post #7.
It is hard, as stated, to tell the gap between the water and the lip.
This picture that Shane previously posted shows the gap nicely - and the pothole has about the same amount of water - with a conveniently placed log giving some depth perception:

[oldno7]

Iceaxe wrote: ratagonia wrote: Going Back UP the rope to the stance and getting warm is an important part of the plan.

Not being able to get up the rope with a broken arm was what ultimately killed the lady in Knotted Rope last summer... http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7830

:popcorn:

Exactly right---My initial list included doing haul systems up to 7:1
In saying that the ratio could be reduced by adding in pulleys to offset the friction encountered with biners.(we did not have pulleys)
If you don't know how--learn how. Someones life "will" depend on your ability eventually. This is not aimed at anyone, rather a advanced canyon skill that all should have if attempting unknown conditions.

[nelsonccc]

Brian in SLC wrote: ratagonia wrote: At 11 pm in the last stretch of Imlay, I plop in and use the hooks and climb the holes, no problemo.
I have not found other hooks useful. I have not found natural edges in potholes that are usable. You could maybe plop a copperhead into Kelsey's GPick holes, but...

The happy hooker with the Pika Ibis hook worked pretty well for Stevie B on I seem to dimly recall that first keeper pothole. Didn't really find an edge to hook on, per se, but, more of a slightly slanting seam (ended up probably hooking on a subtle change in the seam angle). Quite amazing that it worked at all, but, it did (and I seem to recall Steve 'bout puked just lookin' at it).

I've used 'heads in sandstone, in Moab, if I recall, on an aid climb. Really depends on the placement and the rock, specifically. In general, they really don't work much at all in softer sandstone especially in the same configuration seam that would hold in a harder rock with bigger crystals, like granite. See Peeler Direct in Little Cottonwood Canyon outside SLC for what is possible on granite. I think there's still a couple of mashies fixed on that route. And, truth be told, one of the long time guidebook authors and first ascensionists here in the Wasatch routinely carries and places them, enjoying the "authenticity" air they lend to certain ascents. Ie, if it had a bashie, it was a "good" adventure.

Ahhh...memory...now I recall where I used a head in Sandtone. T'was in Arches, on the backside of Sheep Rock. Yikes. Darn thing worked, too, which really surprised me. My partner cleaned it by just pulling up on it.

Kinda easy to make if you have a swager and the right size wire rope, etc.

I don't consider heads (copper head, aluma-heads, mashies, bashies) for exploration type stuff in the desert. They mangle the rock as bad as a drill bit, but, the placement doesn't look as artifical (another "non-natural" technique!). Head placements, unless you really leave it well welded and fixed, usually get pretty blown out. Not a functional thing for the next folks sometimes. Where as, a small, drilled hole is pretty function for the next party, if need be. Last resort, to be sure.

Does make me wonder about a small blob of lead with a wire in it. You could wrap solder around the loop on a rivet hanger (small loop of wire rope) and my bet is it might work for a short up out of a hole. Hmmm. A few years back a feller who was getting way into aid experiemented with a bunch of different stuff to see what would work ok. His main focus was replacing the bashie on the Black Peeler Direct (which had blown on someone). He wanted to represent the the feeling of insecurity on that placement at the same time having a solution that would "stick around" for awhile too. Was pretty interesting. I seem to recall a bunch of pictures he posted on his research on rockclimbing.com. Might be worth a look see.

-Brian in SLC

Oh yes. The Black Peeler. My first introduction to a rivet ladder. I remember imagining that I was on a big wall. Sparked a lot if interest in me to get out to Yosemite. As of 1999 there were still at least one large aluminum bashie fixed on the 2nd pitch I believe?

Agree that sandstone may not hold or work as well as granite for bashie, also agree that if not 'fixed' the resultant area may not be as usable to the next party. I was simply offering up an idea as to possible emergency solutions.