Bogley

[Scott Card]

oldno7 wrote: the internet is a great thing(I use it a lot) and speculation is only human nature,I understand that. I just think it is a little arrogant to say things without knowing what specifics were involved and--- maybe misleading to those with lesser skills.

No arrogance on my part I assure you. I was neither being critical of you or your group or dis-ing you in any way. I saw this as an opportunity to discuss this particular pothole which is a doozy if half full. I also saw this as an opportunity to, in a round about way, spread the word again about this particular spot and the potential danger since Neon and the Cathedral are favorite places to go and an awesome place to rappel. You were wise to turn around and escape. I also thought this as an opportunity to again raise some techniques so as to get some folks thinking and experimenting in the back yard or canyon with some of this stuff. Honestly, much of my initial information and skill came from reading stuff like this on the internet and then going to the climbing store, buying some gear and then going to the back yard or on the roof and trying this stuff. You should have seen me hooking onto my roof with my homemade happy hooker and then testing it with full body weight. I had to patch a small hole after but I had a good time. Wonder what the neighbors thought? :haha:

Let me tell you my favorite tool in my arsenal. It is my friend Spiderman Steve. Amazing climber he is. When I come to a spot like this in Neon, I just usually say, "What do you think?" and then we talk and then I say, "Well Steve, get in and do your thing." He does his thing and then I go in and he pulls me out. It works really, really well. Now don't get me wrong, I think I could handle most potholes but why? I have Spidey along.

Thanks Brian for you list of gear. I think I will add a bit to my kit. And yes, I am confident that somewhere within 15 feet of the lip there is a feature that could be hooked by the happy hooker. Like I say, I will hopefully be there in the fall and I can goof around a bit with this particular pot hole.

[bruce from bryce]

That's one impressive list Brian. Hopefully you get to spread that around amongst your partners and if not I hope they are not carrying redudent equipment.

One thing I learned in my Canyon Rescue Course last week is that, while Tiblocs are a great emergency device that has multiple uses, the confidence I found in using Rope Man's was much greater so I've made the switch.

FOR SALE: Two (2) tiblocs

[Randi]

oldno7 wrote: a couple further notes:

We had several plans in place before getting in the pothole, plans are a must but---cold water will cut those plans short.

Exactly what I heard from the So Cal group. Two of them went in, worked it, and got waaay too cold after a relatively short period of time. They're all experienced and innovative folks too. So they ended up jugging the rope and working up canyon to an exit. I just got off the phone with one of em.

Quote: I'm absolutely positive that there are people who can get out of this hole. We may have been able to if time permitted. Somewhere in the planning stage, before entry, an exit strategy should be in place.

I hope the couple from Cal. got through and say -- man that was easy.
I seriously do.

Nope. Wasn't easy or even possible under the circumstances and/or what they were prepared for. They had a lot of time to think about it on the way out, and back at camp, and one simple solution they came to would have been a blow-up raft of sorts. Might've given one em lift enough to get out (with aid from another). Perhaps? I remember once on Lake Powell, working for over an hour to deal with a pothole problem. All experienced and strong folks. Innovative and imaginative. Just a damn-hard-to-solve pothole problem. Our ultimate solution came in the form of a little extra lift for one person (using some of our bodies as rafts). Worked like a charm. Remember that one Tom? : )

Quote: finally- the internet is a great thing (I use it a lot) and speculation is only human nature, I understand that. I just think it is a little arrogant to say things without knowing what specifics were involved and--- maybe misleading to those with lesser skills. We were trained quite well,we practiced the techniques used to save our lives alot!! We did make rookie mistakes and luckily are here to benefit and learn from them.
I was very confident in our group and we have done many canyons together. We thought we were better than this also but the canyons have the final say. We have so much to learn!

It's all relative - the easy/difficult thing. There are folks who would determine that the easiest things you do would be extremely difficult for them. That's why these discussions are so valuable. Everyone just needs to take in all that info. and disseminate it with regards to their ability/experience. A pothole problem (just like a math problem) is gonna vary depending on the person dealing with it.

I'm happy you guys, and my So. Cal friends made it out OK. Live and learn, and learn to live next time too! It's easy to underestimate the difficulty of potholes until you start dealing with em up close and personal. I've sure had my problems with them. They scare the crap out of me sometimes.

[Brian in SLC]

bruce from bryce wrote: That's one impressive list Brian. Hopefully you get to spread that around amongst your partners and if not I hope they are not carrying redudent equipment.

Hmmm. Its not really that much stuff. A petzl rokpecker with a 4" drill doesn't weight or take up that much space. Alpine aiders both fit on a single neutrino carabiner. Hammer is small and light. The hooks, drill, and a few misc. pins and bolts all fit in a very small ditty bag. A happy hooker takes us some space, but, can be so useful.

I always have my own slings, biners and mechanical ascender(s). So, the "extraction kit" weighs WAY less than a rope and takes up very little space in a pack. Not that I wouldn't use is as an excuse to not have to carry the rope...

Hate to have to deploy the heavy equipment, but, its worse style to get killed. Better style sometimes to just jug back up the rope and either bail, or, come back into the canyon downstream of the keeper.

If you know how to top step in an aider, then you can really minimize any damage too.

Very amazing what a talented climber can do. Always nice to have that in the emergency kit too. Ditto a dwarf toss. If its Stevie B, then you got both the dwarf and the climber in one, so, saves a bit of weight. Ha ha.

-Brian in SLC

[Scott Card]

bruce from bryce wrote: the confidence I found in using Rope Man's was much greater so I've made the switch.



WHAT? WHERE? Ok Bruce, who makes the "Rope Man's". How big and heavy are these things. I can see another trip to the roof in my future to test this new equipment. :haha:

[Scott Card]

Randi wrote: Exactly what I heard from the So Cal group. Two of them went in, worked it, and got waaay too cold after a relatively short period of time. They're all experienced and innovative folks too. So they ended up jugging the rope and working up canyon to an exit. I just got off the phone with one of em.


Great stuff Randi, Thanks. Hey, did the So. Cal group have a Happy Hooker? and try it?

Also, the body raft thing was one idea I was pondering for this hole. I wonder if three or four canyoneers could push against the walls of the pot hole and against eachother forming a sort of bridge perpendicular to the exit. Then have the smurf climb up and out? Again, this takes a group effort and two or three canyoneers would not work in this situation. Another reason I like groups. More bodies to stack. :haha:

[Iceaxe]

Sweet.... my Ninja Grappling hook comes to the rescue. :haha:

[Moose Droppings]

Quote: one simple solution they came to would have been a blow-up raft of sorts.

a while back when that bottomless pothole was turning most folks around, our party was debating the same thing as is being debated now in this forum, only we were at the edge of the keeper. while debating the various "standard" canyoneering solutions to pothole escaping, the party member bringing up the rear, who arived late to the discussion, pulled an inflatable raft from his pack. the pothole became a non-issue.

adding a pack raft to one's canyoneering rack might not be a bad idea when attempting canyons that contain keepers.

[Scott Card]

Moose Droppings wrote: Quote: one simple solution they came to would have been a blow-up raft of sorts.

a while back when that bottomless pothole was turning most folks around, our party was debating the same thing as is being debated now in this forum, only we were at the edge of the keeper. while debating the various "standard" canyoneering solutions to pothole escaping, the party member bringing up the rear, who arived late to the discussion, pulled an inflatable raft from his pack. the pothole became a non-issue.

adding a pack raft to one's canyoneering rack might not be a bad idea when attempting canyons that contain keepers.

After I got done laughing my tail off, I would have gladly used the raft. That is awesome. :lol8: No wonder that canyoneer was bringing up the rear. He was packing a raft!

[Iceaxe]

Quote: one simple solution they came to would have been a blow-up raft of sorts.

You can build a raft from your backpacks by filling everything that will hold air and stuffing the items inside the backpacks. Next you use biners and clip several packs together to create a large raft....

We once made a three pack raft to get over about a 2' lip..... the pack raft provided the needed boost to beach whale over the lip.... not sure how it would work with an 8' lip, other then maybe give you a work platform of sorts.....

Anyhoo.... good stuff being posted.

:2thumbs:

[Randi]

scott wrote: Hey, did the So. Cal group have a Happy Hooker? and try it?

Hey Scott, nice to see your smiling shark! Where you been? I was worried that you quit! No, they didn't have one. I'm hoping Scott (the other one) will post his experience to the canyons group. We had a happy hooker on that lake powell canyon I mentioned, and it did no good at all in that particular case.

shane wrote: You can build a raft from your backpacks by filling everything that will hold air and stuffing the items inside the backpacks. Next you use biners and clip several packs together to create a large raft....

We once made a three pack raft to get over about a 2' lip..... the pack raft provided the needed boost to beach whale over the lip.... not sure how it would work with an 8' lip, other then maybe give you a work platform of sorts.....

Anyhoo.... good stuff being posted.

:2thumbs:

Great idea Shane. One I'll keep in mind if I need a raft and don't happen to have one handy. Like Brian's idea too of lots and lots of slings. Slings save lives! :)

[nelsonccc]

I always carry heads in my bag when I'm doing a route i've not done before. They are remarkably easy to place and a lot stronger than you would think. The idea is that where there's a divot or tiny crack where a hook or anything else won't work. You can generally place a head.

A head is a small loop of cable with a swaged aluminum or copper head. You hold them against the divot or feature and lightly tap with hammer, once they start to stick you can fine tune the placement by using your hook or gate on a biner to tap the edges of the aluminum down.

Trust me it doesnt take much of a feature or divot to make these puppies hold body weight. I've personally used them extensively in Yosemite while climbing Excalibur and The Shield. In fact I can remember pitch 5 of Excalibur like it was yesterday. 5 placements of heads stuck to little more than booger sized peices of rock. Heads are light and cheap. My only caution would be that they are often too good and can become fixed. Experiment first to see just how little tapping is required to support body weight.

[oldno7]

[quote="Randi"] oldno7 wrote: a couple further notes:

We had several plans in place before getting in the pothole, plans are a must but---cold water will cut those plans short.

Exactly what I heard from the So Cal group. Two of them went in, worked it, and got waaay too cold after a relatively short period of time. They're all experienced and innovative folks too. So they ended up jugging the rope and working up canyon to an exit. I just got off the phone with one of em.

Randi
thanks so much for the update,I'm very glad they made it out.

[bruce from bryce]

Having been through the keeper on only two occasions: one a keeper but witht the log in place and last fall when it was a walk out, I don't know if this would work but here goes.

We have been talking about throwing softballs on strings, hooks, a mess of hooks and other devices down canyon up and over the slanted sand hill. But what about throwing our devices around to the right of the exit lip. Seems to me that side was not a straight wall like the left wall was. Anyone seem to remember if this would be a possibility?

[Iceaxe]

oldno7, I'm sure you have thought long and hard about this....

What extra gear would you have wanted with you on the first attempt?

If you went back tomorrow to give it anther go what options or ideas would you attempt next?

Inquiring minds want to know.....

:popcorn: