Bogley

[Scott Card]

Iceaxe wrote: Scott Card wrote: I tried the softball thing in the Squeeze. And no, I didn't throw like a girl. :haha: It didn't work because the walls were so polished and there was no feature, choke stone or log jam to catch on.

Maybe tie a couple hooks to the softball.... you should still be able to toss it a long ways and the hooks might catch something....

....I'm just tossing out ideas....

:popcorn:

Actually, I think the softball thing isn't a bad idea with the right conditions, ie. log jam or chock stone below the exit. The problem in the Squeeze and this particular hole in Neon is that there aren't many features if any for the thing to snag on with or without the hook. The nice thing about the softball thing is that it would swing back and forth over a log jam or chock stone increasing the chance of getting snagged. The bad thing about it is that it is light weight and wouldn't snag on smaller features like a pack toss with the hooks attached which would drag and tend to dig into the sand.

Heck, I am also just trying to think of natural ways to get out of these things also. Drilling and hooking is the least desirable way to exit on so many levels.

[bruce from bryce]

Question: you leave your rope but cannot get out of the pothole. You ascend back into the canyon and look for a place to climb out. I know there is that double pothole farther back up the canyon so can you get out before that and then bypass this entire section?

[trackrunner]

Scott Card wrote: Heck, I am also just trying to think of natural ways to get out of these things also. Drilling and hooking is the least desirable way to exit on so many levels.

I'm learning escaping from potholes. Q: If you have tried every way to get out and it doesn't work, like these guys, would it then be alright to drill? Or never drill unless your life depends on it. Is this canyon too hard to drill?

[Iceaxe]

With enough time and equipment you can engineer you way through, over, or around any obstacle.

Heck..... if worse comes to worse you can always drill and install a bolt ladder, you could do it in short order and then spiderman right up the overhanging lip..... I have no doubt that I could cross that pothole..... but gosh, where do you draw the line. The trick for me is to do it as fast, safe and naturally as possible. I'm not interested in chopping, chipping and drilling....

:cool2:

[oldno7]

Iceaxe wrote: With enough time and equipment you can engineer you way through, over, or around any obstacle.

Heck..... if worse comes to worse you can always drill and install a bolt ladder, you could do it in short order and then spiderman right up the overhanging lip..... I have no doubt that I could cross that pothole..... but gosh, where do you draw the line. The trick for me is to do it as fast, safe and naturally as possible. I'm not interested in chopping, chipping and drilling....

:cool2:

You'd like to think so anyway,
Sounds easy non the internet!
You have no clue, the problem may be that some on here listen to you.

For those who are less talented than shane(myself included) heres some questions:
Can you ascend a rope while free hanging?
Can you get your ascenders over a lip while free hanging?
Can you set up haul systems up to 7:1?(maybe more)
Those are escape back up canyon questions, hoping you didn't pull your rope.
On the downstream side can you get your body up and over a 16" UNDERCUT lip?(the water is at least 8' deep at the exit side)
We tried partner assist and I'm sure I went under at least 8' and no bottom.
Me--I can't hold a drill and hammer over my head while floating on a pack, apparently shane can.
The top side of the downhill lip is probably a 30 deg. slope back into the water, completely covered with 2-3 inches of fine sand,this ramp is probably 30-40 feet long making a potshot useless, there is nothing to set your hooks into(perfectly smooth, featureless rock.)
I will post no more here about this.

I just thought those who may not have shanes manly abilities would like some "real" information.
And one last note--We had a guy go hypothermic which made retreat a necessity. Our next option was a pack raft and trying to launch off that but we had no time.

[stefan]

fluctuating sand and water levels make neon's keeper quite variable in its difficulty. yikes.

for those who haven't read it, here is a story about what can happen with the keeper going alone during less difficult conditions:
Close Call in Canyon Country

[Iceaxe]

Gosh oldno7.... didn't mean to pull your chain.... I meant I have no doubt I could cross that pothole with enough time and equipment.... maybe my post was slightly confusing.....

And yes I've drilled out of a pothole where you could not touch bottom and it was really hard. you have to put a swimmer behind you and he has to continually power you against the rock or you just float away when you strike the drill with the hammer....

But mostly.... I'm just happy you guys are out safe. :2thumbs:

:cool2:

[oldno7]

a couple further notes:

We had several plans in place before getting in the pothole, plans are a must but---cold water will cut those plans short.

I'm absolutely positive that there are people who can get out of this hole.
We may have been able to if time permitted. Somewhere in the planning stage, before entry, an exit strategy should be in place.

I hope the couple from Cal. got through and say -- man that was easy.
I seriously do.

finally- the internet is a great thing(I use it a lot) and speculation is only human nature,I understand that. I just think it is a little arrogant to say things without knowing what specifics were involved and--- maybe misleading to those with lesser skills. We were trained quite well,we practiced the techniques used to save our lives alot!! We did make rookie mistakes and luckily are here to benefit and learn from them.
I was very confident in our group and we have done many canyons together. We thought we were better than this also but the canyons have the final say. We have so much to learn!

[jwurst]

Scott Card wrote: ...Also, the pack with hooks probably wouldn't work because it is sandy for quite some distance from the exit.

Just a thought...
Modify a potshot by sewing a small pocket on the outside in which you can insert a hook with a wide base like a BD grappeling hook. leave a small hole at the bottom of the pocket so that you can stuff the hook's tether through and then use a piece of cord or webbing to secure it solidly to the rope end of the bag so that the hook stays snug in the pocket with the point facing out. Throw the bag into the sand/gravel past the pothole so that the hook is facing down into the ground. When you pull on the rope hopefully the weight of the bag will push the hook into the dirt as you drag the bag. Put maybe several hooks on several bags and add in rope friction over the lip and you might have a solid enough anchor to get out.

[Iceaxe]

oldno7 wrote: I just think it is a little arrogant to say things without knowing what specifics were involved and---

I think you took some of the posts personally and they were never intended to be.... Everything I seen posted was "what if's" to Scott's request for thoughts on escaping a pothole. We look forward to hearing more about what you tried and why it didn't work. These situations are great learning tools.

Your group got out of the slot with everyone safe... how can you ask for a better result then that?

:rockon:

[cp0915]

For what it's worth, I didn't take Shane's (or anyone else's) comments as an attack on or judgment of Kurt and his group's handling of this situation. I simply took all this as a discussion of possible solutions to a problem.

On another note, I think this is a terrific thread. I'd like to see it evolve into a discussion of the various troublesome canyon obstacles and folks' experiences working through them...with pics!

[Alex]

I tend to agree with cp. Listening to people such as Scott, Shane, stefan, bruce and many other discussing advanced techniques, seems to only add more info to us noobs.

I would appreciate oldno7's follow up to the exit techniques they used, sounds like you guys were the last group who got out successfully.

On the other note, people who take Shane's and Tom's guides to heart and follow it blindly without any on site decision making will have to go through Natural Selection. :roll: Got to have a little bit of common sense to think on your own in these situation. I really appreciate everyone who posts beta online and share their own experiences. It gives us new canyoneers more info to crunch through before plunging into the unknown.

[trackrunner]

Well since my coment started this . . . I was just wondering if drilling was your last option if it would be difficult? Yes. Now I found out.

Glad Oldno7 and his group made it out. When I first read this thread I had a feeling the "experienced canyoneers" must have been his group. I look forward to his report and discussion.

Yes I'm the first to admit it sounds easy reading but in the real world things change.

Glad you guys had a plan of attack and retreat. I learned a lot from that. Fill us more if there is any more ifno. :cool2:

Edit: I saw the pic and noticed the lip. That would be hard to climb, drill, toss, etc, out of. :cool2:

[Alex]

This might sound very naive, but I am a noob so correct me if I am wrong.

Can this be used in extreme situations such as this keeper hole?

Ramset HD22 .22 Caliber Single Shot Tool

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&productId=100091715&N=10000003+90401



Basically to put a couple of nails in, then put a webbing on it and make a ladder to get out. Just a thought I had last night at 1 o'clock in the morning.

[Brian in SLC]

Alex wrote: Can this be used in extreme situations such as this keeper hole? Ramset HD22 .22 Caliber Single Shot Tool

My bet is not. Especially something you could hang body weight from, especially. Plus, be an extra piece of gear that doesn't accomplish any other functions, so, would be dead weight. Not to mention risky.

Best bet is to have some gear that makes escape possible, no matter the conditions. That means carrying a drill and some hooks. With a bat hook, you don't need much of a drilled hole. Easier to drill if you have someone pushing on you, for sure. But, doable if you don't, just takes a bit more time.

And, you have to be saavy on how to climb efficiently with hooks, too. If you done any A4 or A5 (!) aid climbing, that would be a huge benefit.

If you don't have enough cold tolerance, or, the wet/dry suit to hang out long enough to make it work, then that's another problem too, as doing anything technical when you're freezing is very difficult.

Pack tosses can be effective. So can tossing a wad of rope (monkey fist or some such). Expecting a hook to dig into the sand probably won't work. There needs to be enough force to withstand someone's weight on the rope.

Happy hooker can be extremely effective. We've hooked out of pot holes by just using a grappling hook on the end of a happy hooker, and hooking on features that were well out of reach (like 15 feet up). Have a couple of alpine aiders makes a huge difference too, as, you have to be able to effectively weight the hook and then climb out, without blowing it.

Part of my "kit" for canyons when I'm not sure about water levels and for the possibility of keepers, is two bat hooks, two grappling hooks (BD design, great throw), a lightweight hammer (which also extends with a cleaning tool inside the handle with would be great for tossing out of a pothole), a drill and bolt kit, two alpine aiders, and a mess of slings and biners to match. Much prefer not to drill, but, sometimes its gets 'er done.

And, really, unless you're proficient in some of these techniques, you'll probably be spinning your wheels. Well seasoned rock climbers, those with a fair bit of aid climbing under their belt, seem to do prety well as they've had to figure out these types of things "under duress" in the vertical realm before and they usually have a system for ascending these types of problems fairly dialed in.

-Brian in SLC