Bogley

Sombeech · Joined: 09 Dec 2004 Posts: 12181 Location: The Rubbish Bin

ratagonia wrote: And telling your many fans to NOT DO THE CANYON if they can't pay the dues of not causing damage.

That's gonna stop them dead in their tracks. :roflol: Man, if I read that, I'd turn right around.

Well fellas, this is the new political forum. I knew the moaning would have to move somewhere. But seriously, blaming somebody for damage because they provided directions?

But then I guess the same thing happens with the bike community. Somebody builds a trail or a stunt, a kid gets hurt, and they want to see who they can sue. I used to think that the biker decided to ride that trail without the pressure of others.

CarpeyBiggs · Joined: 18 Mar 2007 Posts: 1747 Location: Fairbanks, AK

Sombeech wrote: Well fellas, this is the new political forum. I knew the moaning would have to move somewhere. But seriously, blaming somebody for damage because they provided directions?

'Beech, why do you even post in here? You have nothing to offer. Heaven forbid we actually have a dialog where people with opposing viewpoints express their opinions.

Please delete the canyoneering forum so we don't have to deal with this b.s. anymore.

oldno7 · Joined: 16 May 2007 Posts: 649

I hate going around following Dan and agreeing with him, or beliefs aren't even exactly the same but---what he said works for me. Close this section down--way to much controversy.
Now if someone will get busy--we need a new forum--bogley is broke

RedRoxx · Joined: 07 Jan 2007 Posts: 107 Location: Tucson Az

Ha, I don't know the players here and all the undercurrents; but this is nothing compared to some cave grotto meetings I've been to. Cavers disagree who needs access, who causes damage, the land issue ( forest service is the evil empire in some areas it seems) informing private land owners what is on their property and the results---sometimes a friendly reception and sometimes at the end of a shotgun.

I respect the cavers who look into a room, with a pristine white crystal floor and delicate formations; see across the room a magnificent formation. But they would cause possible damage crossing the floor. And they say---"I don't need to go there." This is a cave dug open by these explorers, so a good chance they are the first people in this terrain, ever. Those folks have a strong respectful desire to protect the cave. So no beta is revealed as to location or whatever. Also of the two of the three cavers on that trip ( I wasn't one) they reburied the entrance and decided to never return. I hope that place remains undiscovered again forever.
Plenty of caves out there with access to all levels of interest and ability.

Off topic---so shoot me!!

Sombeech · Joined: 09 Dec 2004 Posts: 12181 Location: The Rubbish Bin

CarpeyBiggs wrote: Please delete the canyoneering forum so we don't have to deal with this b.s. anymore.

I'll just close your account down and see where it goes from there. :lol8:

stefan · Joined: 09 Jan 2006 Posts: 4427 Location: somewhere

how 'bout instead of calling time-outs and listening to the commentators,
we just let the players play the game?

Jaxx · Joined: 16 Jan 2007 Posts: 1745

I will show you how to solve anchor problems in tierdrop. Don't tell anyone that I showed you this. I will not take responsibility for damage done to yourself/others/rocks/gear. You understand that moabmatt will come beat you down for being in his canyon and I am not responsible for that. I am sorry that my mspaint skills are so lacking and that you have to have to try to decipher what I was trying to draw.

We used about 50 ft of webbing, tied back on itself to make a 25ft loop around the rock and about 100 ft of pull cord for the first anchor.

The second anchor was actually pretty sturdy. The slope it was on was a little nerve wrecking at first but it worked out. We tied the webbing to the rock and stacked a couple rocks in front of it. The drop isn't that far and its a big slope at first so I wasn't too worried. The last rap we did the far right. It does leave huge marks. Next time I do tierdrop I will rig something similar up as the first anchor.

Shag. Don't worry about the drama. I think moabmatt just wanted people to know about the problems he has in the canyon. We can thank Potter for the parks attitude on climbing. I would still go if I were you and figure out a way to minimize damage. You can use my anchor idea free of charge, actually I am pretty sure I stole that idea from Shane.

shagster · Joined: 31 Mar 2006 Posts: 542 Location: Somewhere in Utah

Thanks for letting me use your anchor idea Jaxx I appreacite it. At least someone is willing to show others a good way to minimize impact instead of just saying stay out I found the thing... :2thumbs: .

Iceaxe · Joined: 07 Mar 2005 Posts: 7759 Location: Local Bordello

shagster wrote: Sorry Ice for bringing you under fire on this one.

No worries.... I'm here to kick ass and chew bubblegum...And I'm currently all outta bubblegum.

:lol8:

Iceaxe · Joined: 07 Mar 2005 Posts: 7759 Location: Local Bordello

Thanks for contributing a positive solution Jaxx....

FWIW: Teirdrop is already out of the bag and all the bitching and finger pointing in the world will not solve the current problem. No way to put the genie back in the bottle. If anyone really wants to do something useful come up with some realistic ideas to fix the current problem.

Anther mis-conception I noted in this thread.... Zion has never been happy with canyoneering. They have just been forced to deal with the issue before Arches. I know of NO National Park that is thrilled with the idea of individuals jumping in ever hole and crack in the park. Ideally a National Park would like to keep 100% of the population confined to a paved, fenced and touristized 10% of the park.

:cool2:

Jaxx · Joined: 16 Jan 2007 Posts: 1745

shagster wrote: Thanks for letting me use your anchor idea Jaxx I appreacite it. At least someone is willing to show others a good way to minimize impact instead of just saying stay out I found the thing... :2thumbs: .

No problem. But I want to reiterate that I am pretty sure I got it from Iceaxe. If it wasn't him it was someone else, I'm just a follower :2thumbs:

Also: My dad actually climbed back up the first rap and watched me pull it. He wanted to see how well it pulled and if it would get stuck in some of the HUGE rope burns in the rock. He said it pulled beautifully and that it didn't make a mark on the rock. He also climbed back down with me spotting him, he didn't need the spot. skipping the first rap would solve part of the issue.

mtreker · Joined: 08 Oct 2006 Posts: 23 Location: Salt Lake City

Well I guess I'll add my two cents. I've done the canyon. It's a nice canyon that takes a couple of hour and is enjoyable. I saw it on Matt site like we all did and thought that would be fun.If Matt likes it or not his site encourages us to go find the canyons. It's just a matter of time before we find them. If he can't see this, he's not a smart man. You tell someone they can't do something, that makes them want to do it even more. I've also done granary and drangonfly I'd love to find out where Pleiades, Entrajo are and do them too. Thats my two cents.

ratagonia · Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 7:53 pm Post subject: Re: Dodge ball?

CarpeyBiggs wrote: Sombeech wrote: Well fellas, this is the new political forum. I knew the moaning would have to move somewhere. But seriously, blaming somebody for damage because they provided directions?

'Beech, why do you even post in here? You have nothing to offer. Heaven forbid we actually have a dialog where people with opposing viewpoints express their opinions.

Please delete the canyoneering forum so we don't have to deal with this b.s. anymore.

Carpey - you missed the memo - this is a Rag-On-Shane thread, not a Rag-On-Beech thread.

Tom

ratagonia · Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:06 pm Post subject: Re: Dodge ball?

Sombeech wrote: ratagonia wrote: And telling your many fans to NOT DO THE CANYON if they can't pay the dues of not causing damage.

That's gonna stop them dead in their tracks. :roflol: Man, if I read that, I'd turn right around.

Your missing the point (somewhat intentionally, methinks).

Shane spews about being a good environmental citizen, but he has had, and still has, an exciting opportunity to educate young, enthusiastic canyoneers in specific techniques to keep from F*****g up the canyon in a specific, very sensitive area. Instead, he dodges any responsibility with vague claims of ur, something - I can't really figure out what his claim is, other than its not HIS fault, when very, very clearly it is.

Shane's claim seems to be that because it is F*****g over my friend Matt, then it is all for the good. I see no reason why F*****g over members of the community, especially my friends, justifies assholian behaviour - perhaps Shane could enlighten us how the end justifies the means in this case.

And just to be clear, I absolutely support Shane's RIGHT to publish whatever bullshit he wants. Please respect my RIGHT to ATTEMPT to call him on the damage to the environment that his actions have perpetrated.

Tom

skianddive · Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 12:40 am Post subject: Re: Damage to Moab Canyons

moabmatt wrote: Website beta guys: You know that I like you guys. Really, I do. That said, please don't publish any more routes we guide. I realize that the demand for publishing new routes around Moab is strong. But, please... At least avoid publishing routes we "pioneer." Pretty Please?

I just wish you guys (and anyone else publishing beta, for that matter) will remember one thing: You guys don't need the approval of the National Park Service to make your money. We do. Please don't screw it up for us.
OK, I'll add my 3 cents along with a possible solution.

Why not publish the beta yourself, Matt, with precise instructions on anchor locations, placements, and techniques? I'm sure you'll find that most canyoneers will be more than happy to follow your directions. And there are other retrievable anchors besides the Slick that you could recommend.

And this is *not* dumbing down the canyon - it's preserving it!

I think I can predict what you'll say....that this beta will detract from your business because people will not need to be guided in these canyons; however, I think you will find that your contribution to the community will help to project a more positive image for your business and result in more recommendations for your guiding and training services.

I'm sure the other purveyors of beta will be happy to link to your site or include your instructions to help disseminate them. Ultimately, your beta would protect the canyons from further damage and help to placate the NPS.