Bogley

[AJ]

Hey all,

Since nobody has stepped up to the plate; I’ll do so. However, I’m putting some constraints on what I am prepared to do. Mostly, I was heading out Canyoneering on 3/27 and don’t mind if a few others join my trip; and I hope we get a bigger turnout so we can all visit around camp and other trips can also go. So, my specific plan is, I’m heading out on Thursday 3/27, and Canyoneering on Friday 3/28 – Sunday 3/30. I’ll head to the North Wash area, and will do a few of my typical pretty aggressive canyon days. Anyone (including Noobs) are more than welcome to join me at the Sandthrax campsite, and if they feel up to my trips, are welcome to join me (limited group size though.) Again, I’m hoping other capable folks will join in, and volunteer to lead some other trips too. The North Wash area is a great place to host a Noobfest as the canyons are relatively short (so many times, you can take your time or the aggressive folks can stack a few in a day.) The canyons are usually pretty dry too.

I’ll bring some extra beta (including GPS coordinates) for others to use, and will be happy to go over gear, techniques, etc. I’m even planning on a set of canyons on Friday where a few less experienced (but capable) folks could head out with me, and take their time and do one of the canyons with me. Likely, my team will forge ahead, and make sure all the anchors are good. We’ll then go on to finish the other canyons in the set; and the other group can just take their time and enjoy the canyon.

So here’s what you need to do if you are interested. Reply to this post, and let everyone know you are coming. Let us know the timeframe you are coming for, what your canyon plans/desires are, if you are looking for a ride or are willing to drive, if you have a stove you are willing to share, and most importantly whether you are experienced enough to lead some canyons. Again, I’ll have some beta, which will include GPS coordinates; so the moderately capable should be able to descend some other canyons pretty easily. There are plenty to choose from with the Leprechaun’s, Shillelagh’s, Blarney’s, etc.

Here’s info you will need to know.


Timeframe:
My group will head out from the Boulder Colorado area on Thursday morning/afternoon/evening 3/27, and will return on Sunday 3/30. We’ll drive to the Sandthrax campsite that night (arriving quite late) and set up camp. We’ll do canyons Friday through mid-day Sunday and head back Sunday afternoon/night.



Tentative Itinerary:

As I mentioned, I’ll be doing some pretty aggressive days. Here’s my plan:

Friday 3/28: I’m planning on the three Poison Springs canyons. Starting out with Arscenic, then Constrychnine, and if time permits, Slideanide. They are found on Shane’s website for those that have a membership there: http://www.climb-utah.com/Powell/ (Maybe Shane will allow me to distribute the info since it’s a community thing.) The general gist is that all three are relatively tight canyons, with some great downclimbing potential. They are on the easier side of the scale for canyons; but all three normally take around 4-6 hours each roundtrip. I’m planning on doing all three (have done it before.) Anyway, as I mentioned, a second group of folks is welcome to join me and head out to the trailhead with us. My team will go through, and make sure the anchors are solid, and the second team (which needs to be independently capable) will take their time, enjoying the canyon. The exit is pretty obvious for Arscenic (which is the one we’ll start with; so you should have a great time.) If you think you want to (and can) do all three, you are welcome to join me. (We’ll be chatting about what you’ve done in the past though…) Note: I’ll be utilizing the full day, so I’m planning on LEAVING camp at 7am on Friday morning. That is, driving away at 7am. If you want to join in either of the options listed, you need to be up and ready to go at that time. If other groups go out, they can control their own timeframe, and can likely leave much later.

Everyone can get together in the afternoon/evening; camp at the same spot, enjoy the fire, meet new folks, etc. Again, like I mentioned, hopefully we get a big group, and can offer many trips. Everyone can just solidify the details of the next day’s trips on that evening around the fire.

Saturday 3/29: I’m planning on doing Monkey Business, and then chaining it with one of the Leprechauns. Most likely Right Leprechaun. Both of these canyons are available in Kelsey’s book or Shane’s website.

Sunday 3/30: I’m planning on doing Adobe Swale, also listed on Shane’s website; and then heading home.

Note, the canyon choices I have made may require a wetsuit depending on your cold tolerance. I run REALLY warm (usually wear shorts through winter) so I’m only taking a shorty wetsuit. You need to make your own decision on what to bring for thermal protection (and for everything else too I guess. See the Disclaimer section at the bottom of the e-mail.)

As it says, these plans are tentative, and could change. Possibly even when we are around the fire the evening before.


Note: EVERYONE should be familiar with the canyons they are planning on going on at the very minimum. Please use the links and resources below to research the canyons to make sure you know the day’s plans; as well as make sure you are capable of them. If possible, we’ll try to read the descriptions aloud before heading in.



Other resources for beta:
Michael Kelsey’s book: Technical Slot Canyon Guide to the Colorado Plateau
http://canyoneeringusa.com/utah/north/
http://www.climb-utah.com/Powell/index.htm



Canyon Info:

Here’s some of my notes (meant to be a very short overview) on the canyons I’m planning.

Shane Poison Springs - 95 mm 20.3, then 6.2 mi; decent camping at trailhead
Arscenic - lots of dc, 4-5 hrs, 60 foot and 60m for light, or 60m; entry raps 50/35/65 ft,
20ft chimney dc, knee-waist deep water, dcs maybe pa, arch on return

Slideanide - lots of dc, 5-6 hrs, 150 ft rap, staged with 60m; 50ft entry, knee-waist water,
150ft winding rappel of 2 stages, arch on return.

Constrychnine - big raps, 5-6 hrs, 2x60m ropes; 120ft entry, 190ft, dc, 90ft, chamber, arch on ret
knee-waist water, Can shortcut!

Kelsey - West Butler canyon
West Fork aka Monkey Business: 2 stage 23m corkscrew rap, 10m, keeper ph, 50m potholes w bypass, 8m then 16m;
50 or 60m rope; 4-6 hrs

Kelsey - Mile 28.1
Shane recommends right, Left, then middle.
Shane Left Fork Leprechaun (upper lep); 100 ft rope; 50ft, 4 short raps or downclimbs; 3-4 hours

West Fork: best canyon in NW; 10m; no harness, downclimb/squeeze 1km; 5 hours
Shane Middle Fork Leprechaun (shimrock); Mae West; R rating; 35 ft drop in; 5-6 hours
has escape up butress between middle and left fork - shortcut!

East Fork: 5m handline, 6m handline, water in pothole, 6m overhang; 3.5 hrs
Shane Right Fork Leprechaun (shamrock); 100 ft rope; dino tracks near 30ft; 4-5 hours

Shane - Adobe Swale - 4-5 hrs, car shuttle or 2 mi road walk; 2x50m ropes; 160ft, good dcs, good views,
decent camping if not windy; 30 ft chimney rap/dc, 160ft through 3 ph, wetsuit in cold weather,
dc and 45ft rap, more dc/rap, slanted hall; 15m s of hanksville on 95, then 7 or 9 mi for shuttle



Carpooling:
If you need a ride then as time get’s closer, you can post and ask for a ride. My group is coming from the Boulder, Colorado area. If you are kind enough to drive, then post that you are looking for riders. A tradition we have is that drivers do not have to pay for gas (or at least, pay way less. Take care of them.)



Roads:
Many North Wash roads should be passable by any vehicle (not guaranteed though, so the higher clearance the better.) Higher clearance vehicles will be better for the Saturday canyons. Subaru’s are a good choice for this trip.



Maps:
I will have a printout of some of the Kelsey route descriptions, and Shane’s for the canyons we are doing (as well as I have done all of the canyons in the area.) If anyone has time to do research to see if they can find other people's trip reports, buy/print their own topo maps/route descriptions, etc; please do so. The more beta we have, the better.



Guidebook/Maps:
I am using the guidebook "Technical Slot Canyon Guide to the Colorado Plateau" by Michael Kelsey. You can get this guidebook at any outdoor
store. I’m also using the info from the websites I listed above. If you want your own maps, you can get them at the Boulder Map Gallery, or print them out from Topo or similar program.


GPS:
I have a GPS with me; but if you have one, know how to use it, and want to bring it; feel free. Note, the GPSs probably won't work in the canyons (definitely not in the slots) but you can waypoint camp and car location...



Camping:
It will be car camping at it’s finest. Our cars will be usually be within 20 feet of our camp spot. There is a large camp area (though, we may opt for a few of the smaller sites too, if we have a bunch of people) but will hang out at the big campsite at night. Bring a camp chair, and pick up firewood if you can. If you need to share a camp stove, or can share your camp stove, then include that in your post. I will have a whisperlite camp stove with me and don't mind sharing. I'll have plenty of fuel. Note: They are good for boiling water and high-heat cooking; they don't simmer well. The big coleman burners can be used fine. Just remember that everything you bring will be covered in sand.



Campsite Location:
I-70 to Exit #149/Hanksville. South on UT-24 to Hanksville. Recommended to fill up on gas in Hanksville. South/Southeast on Highway 95. Shortly past the junction for 276; watch the mile markers. Around mile marker 28.3, there will be a dirt road on the left (north) side, take that in and there will be a large open camp spot. It’s shown on this overview map: http://canyoneeringusa.com/utah/300bleprechaun.jpg As time gets closer, we’ll figure out who is going to arrive first, and will designate a signal/vehicle to look for; so everyone knows exactly where and in which sites we will be camping.



Water:
There is NO water in the area. Bring enough water for the weekend. I’ll be bringing a 7 gallon container; likely shared between two or three of my group. Remember that you can fill up or purchase water in Green River. There is a water spigot outside of both gas stations in Green River (ask before using.) There is also a well with super-high power water (fills seven gallon jugs in no time flat) in the station on the right hand side (with the Subway.) It’s out in the parking lot area, near four red posts and the sign. Look for the pipe coming out of the ground.



Wake-up Times/Timing of Day:
My group will be leaving camp EARLY every day. We’ll wake up with first light, and be moving shortly (likely 7am) thereafter so we can utilize the most of the daylight. First light is around 6:46am, Sunrise is around 7:15am, sunset is around 7:45pm and civil twilight ends around 8pm. The full moon is on 3/21, so we should have decent moonlight (about 65% waning) for the entire trip. Plan on being up before sunrise and ready to leave at 7am on the first day; and we’ll organize for the canyons first (around 6:45am with first light). We’ll be LEAVING at 7am. Again, hopefully there will be other groups if people don’t want to be that aggressive…

We’ll then be discussing departure times for the following days around the campfire that night. As for my group; if you aren’t ready in time, you don’t go.



Anchor gear:
I don't know the current conditions of anchors in the canyons, but it’s a pretty popular location so they should be good. I’ll have all the anchor material we will need for my group. If you want to bring additional stuff, you are more than welcome to. We will likely be spreading some group gear amongst the group, so save a little room in your pack.



Wetsuits:
These canyons are normally relatively dry. For my trips, I don’t expect anything more than a wade, so wetsuits will not be required but at least a shorty is recommended. I’ll e-mailed a couple of canyon groups as time gets closer, to see if I can get info on current conditions. If you have a wetsuit, and want to bring it. Feel free. The canyons I am planning normally aren’t that wet. However, it’s possible that they are wet, as well as it’s possible we may choose a different and wet canyon if some folks want to. (We’ll be discussing Sat and Sun canyons around the campfire in the evening; and will finalize our trips that way.)



Ropes:
I’m planning on bringing all the ropes necessary for my trips; but they will be 8mm ropes. If you haven’t rapped on 8mm line, it can be fast. Very fast. I recommend having 2 carabiners on your belay device to add more friction, a jaws-type ATC/belay device helps too, and definitely bring a pair of gloves so you don’t burn your hand. A pair of bike gloves works fine; as do gardening gloves. There is a thin pair of Nitrile gloves made by Atlas that work well in warmer canyons (Nitrile is sticky enough to still climb with them on) and a thicker pair of Atlas gloves (Therma or Therma-Fit’s) that work better for colder canyons. The Atlas gloves can be found at many hardware stores, including McGuckins. Ask me if you have questions or concerns.



Meals:
We'll just do most meals on our own, but let’s plan on doing a potluck dinner on Friday 3/28. Bring food and/or drinks to share. (Likely we’ll have food left over to share on Saturday night as well…)


Weather:

Hanksville:
http://www.weather.com/outlook/recreation/outdoors/tenday/USUT0101?from=36hr_topnav_outdoors
http://www.weather.com/weather/wxclimatology/monthly/graph/USUT0101?from=search

Green River:
http://www.weather.com/outlook/recreation/outdoors/tenday/USUT0094?from=36hr_topnav_outdoors
http://www.weather.com/outlook/recreation/outdoors/wxclimatology/monthly/graph/USUT0094?from=tenDay_bottomnav_outdoors


Here's the spread:
Town Rec High Avg High Avg Low Rec Low
Hanksville 88 62 29 4
Green River 84 61 31 6

We are hoping for around the average high or warmer, with day temps in the 60’s; with night time temps in the 20’s or 30’s. Although, that time of the year is quite variable so dress appropriately, and CHECK THE WEATHER AGAIN JUST BEFORE LEAVING!


Group gear:
Everyone should plan on carrying a little something extra; as we’ll have some group gear and emergency gear to carry for the canyons. Plan on around a half to one nalgene’s worth of space (possibly a little more); so make sure you have some room in your pack for that. We’ll divide the group gear up just before heading into the canyons.



Recommended Canyon Gear:
Lightweight, non-cotton clothes. Recommend long sleeves and long pants, but as durable/light as you can be. Good to go to Salvation Army, Savers, or similar and pick up stuff there. There will likely be a lot of scraping against rock, and much better to be cheap clothes than skin. Especially in this North Wash area; the canyons have some tight spots and some VERY abrasive sandstone.

Elbow pads and knee pads. Just cheap volleyball ones. I’d stay away from the plastic ones, as those could slip if you are using it to brace yourself against rock; this can scar the rock and you can take an unexpected ride quickly downwards. Walmart makes some for $6 per pair that I have been using for a long time; just cheap square ones.

Gloves. You will likely be stemming/chimneying in the canyons, so again, better to tear into gloves rather than skin. The Atlas Nitrile ones, or the Therma/Therma-Fit gloves mentioned above work well. You can get them at most hardware stores; McGuckins definitely has them. Bike gloves work okay too (but your fingertips might get thrashed.).

Packs. You won’t be carrying a lot; so you will want a small pack that can get worn/shredded/possibly destroyed. Probably around 1000-2000 cubic inches would be a good size. A larger camelback could work too. You need enough to carry some approach/emergency clothing (ex: windbreaker, possibly windpants, etc), some webbing, group gear, water, and some food. Best to just use a webbing harness for these canyons. Make your pack size as small as possible. Those even thinking of doing Shennanigans will want a VERY small pack; trust me.

Everyone will also need a short piece of webbing or cord so they can lower their backpack if necessary. I use a 15ft piece of parachute cord, with
loops tied into it. You can use 5-6mm cord, or webbing too. Make sure you have at least a 5 ft (10' recommended) piece that you can tie to your pack to lower it.

Shoes. Bring shoes that you don’t mind getting trashed. When I do aggressive canyons; a pair of shoes lasts a weekend if I’m lucky…

Rappelling Gear:
- Harness
- Belay device (Jaws type ATC device like a Trango Jaws or an ATC-XP highly recommended.)
- 2 large locking carabiners (mandatory), 2-4 normal carabiners (optional)
- A small sling/cord/shoelace to secure your belay device, so you don’t drop it (optional)
- Some kind of a rappel glove
- Helmet: bring some kind of a helmet, a bike helmet works too. On my trip: No helmet = no canyons. No exceptions.
- Prussik slings: I would also like everyone to bring prusik slings. These are just two
loops of cord that you attach to your harness. They allow you to climb up a rope if you
need to. They are also useful for connecting yourself to an anchor. They are very easy
to make. Just go to any mountaineering store and buy *two different colors* of 5 or 6
millimeter climbing cord (one should be ~6 ft, one ~10 ft). (6mm recommended) (around $5)
We will show you how to make the slings.



Dry Bag:
Usually not necessary here; not recommended as you could tear a hole in it. If you have one, and are bringing a wetsuit; bring it along just in case we do a wet canyon; but make sure it’s protected. Things get trashed pretty quickly here due to the abrasive canyons.



Recommended Non-Canyon Gear and other info:
Be prepared for possible cold weather at night; check the forecast just before leaving. Bring enough water for the weekend. The best places for gas are usually; the Loaf and Jug on the left hand side of the road in Golden; just before you get to Highway 6. Then Grand Junction on the Horizon Drive exit. Head South on Horizon, and there is a Conoco with a Subway on the left; or the Safeway on the right farther down. Then remember to fill up in Green River (2nd Green River exit; has an Arby’s and a Subway) or even better, in Hanksville.




Pitching In:
I usually ask for a $5/day for gear used/destroyed on the trip. Plan on pitching in $15 for the whole weekend and the way it will work is that the people that provide ropes will get some money; regardless of signs of wear. If a rope gets a coreshot, etc; then they will get more money. Those who leave anchor gear in the canyons will be re-imbursed (webbing, R/QL’s, etc.) I keep a kitty of money from canyon trips; and the rest gets saved for the next trip. If we have other group gear destroyed then we’ll pitch in more so that person isn’t footing the bill by himself.



Disclaimer:
The people running this trip will do everything they can to help keep you safe. However, the outdoors are unpredictable, and anything can happen. Ultimately, YOU are responsible for your own safety. Make your own choices; about what canyons you feel up to, as well as your actions in the canyon. If you see something that you don’t agree with, bring it up. Everyone makes mistakes, and I’m sure nobody will have an issue with discussing why we are doing a certain thing. Better that then the possible alternative if something is truly wrong. You should know enough about the canyons through your own research to know whether it’s something you can handle. Nobody else takes responsibility for you, your actions, or even their (or anyone else’s) actions, decisions or gear. You and you alone have the responsibility for keeping yourself safe. Read this disclaimer, and interpret it in the context of this trip: http://www.nelsonrocks.org/disclaimer.html


As always, feel free to PM me to discuss any questions you might have.



Looking forward to a fun time Canyoneering and hope to see you there!
A.J.

[skianddive]

AJ wrote: Here’s info you will need to know.
From one detailed organizer to another, nice job! :2thumbs:

[tanya]

Put me on the to go list! --- looks very well organized!

I should be able to do the whole weekend.

Thursday 3/27 night --- and Canyoneering on Friday 3/28 – Sunday 3/30.

[ratagonia]

I like heavy cotton clothing for this time of year in northwash. Jeans work great, and I have some heavy cotton sweatshirts I use. Any cotton pants worn are likely to last at most ONE day. The sweatshirts seem to last longer, especially if reversed.

Since I never carry prusiks, I guess I can't come :cry:

Always bring a drybag. Fold it up neatly and hide it in the pack so it does not get scraped up.

Tom

[AJ]

Thanks for the compliment Ski. Yes, I am pretty organized/anal. Would like to avoid as many questions and issues as possible.

Glad you can make it Tanya. We'll see you there!

ratagonia wrote: I like heavy cotton clothing for this time of year in northwash. Jeans work great, and I have some heavy cotton sweatshirts I use. Any cotton pants worn are likely to last at most ONE day. The sweatshirts seem to last longer, especially if reversed.

Since I never carry prusiks, I guess I can't come :cry:

Always bring a drybag. Fold it up neatly and hide it in the pack so it does not get scraped up.

Tom

Tom,

I'm sure you know the drawbacks of cotton; losing majority of insulating value when wet. Sure, if someone is just doing the Irish bunch, and they don't have water; cotton can work. Someone with your experience, I wouldn't worry too much about. However, I would be careful what you are posting to the general populace. Especially a post about NoobFest. I've gone into supposedly dry canyons and had a swim before - as I'm sure you have. Those situations could turn quite bad if you aren't adequately prepared. Only my opinion, I could be wrong.

In general, I'd recommend against cotton, unless you know for certain the canyons you are doing will be dry and/or the weather will be warm enough to warrant wearing cotton. (Niether of these are known at this time.)

Without prussiks, you can still come; just not on my trip. ;) Hope you can make it and will run a separate trip for a different set of canyons to your liking. Or join on my trip; whichever you prefer. I think I can let it slide that you don't have prussiks. One set per group will usually suffice. I think it's a good idea for those getting into the sport to have them though. I was planning on showing how to tie them and some of the uses for those that aren't already familiar...

As for the drybag; I don't ALWAYS carry one. Why would you carry one in Chambers or Sandthrax for instance? I put that if you have one, make sure it's protected. The important point is that many beginners might not have a drybag; and likely the canyons they are going in won't require one. So, don't worry if you don't have one. If you do have one, great, but make sure it's protected as the North Wash canyons are harsh for those who aren't familiar. Like Tom mentioned, make sure it fits inside your backpack...

Take care,
A.J.

[AJ]

By the way all. Sorry I can't plan to do less aggressive canyons and/or more planning right now; I already have about seven more trips in the planning phase, too many details already...

Tanya, are you looking to join my crew, or are you thinking of a different set of canyons. From your previous posts, I'd think you would be comfortable leading a group. What are you thinking?

Tom, are you coming out? Or were you just planning on giving advice to make my trip more adventurous? (Sending in the noobs in cotton...) Same question; you leading or joining?

Again, for those joining: Let us know the timeframe you are coming for, what your canyon plans/desires are, if you are looking for a ride or are willing to drive, if you have a stove you are willing to share, and most importantly whether you are experienced enough (and willing) to lead some canyons. Would be good to have some different options available...

[tanya]

AJ wrote: By the way. Sorry I can't plan to do less aggressive canyons and/or more planning right now; I already have about seven more trips in the planning phase, too many details already...

Tanya, are you looking to join my crew, or are you thinking of a different set of canyons. From your previous posts, I'd think you would be comfortable leading a group. What are you thinking?

Tom, are you coming out? Or were you just planning on giving advice to make my trip more adventurous? (Sending in the noobs in cotton...) Same question; you leading or joining?

:mrgreen: That's because you don't know me! I am pretty good at downclimbing or up for that matter and rappelling has never been a problem and I even have the little prussick things --- never used them but I do have them and even a pink helmet! :mrgreen: Bo, Shane or Tom have done all that stuff on any canyon I have done in the past (usually while I take photos) --- but I am a good follower and do whatever is needed or desired of me. So even though I have done lots of stuff I need to go with a leader and in no way am one.

And most of all --- I like to follow men, not lead them. :nod: :lol8:

[abirken]

AJ wrote: By the way all. Sorry I can't plan to do less aggressive canyons and/or more planning right now; I already have about seven more trips in the planning phase, too many details already...

Tanya, are you looking to join my crew, or are you thinking of a different set of canyons. From your previous posts, I'd think you would be comfortable leading a group. What are you thinking?

Tom, are you coming out? Or were you just planning on giving advice to make my trip more adventurous? (Sending in the noobs in cotton...) Same question; you leading or joining?

Again, for those joining: Let us know the timeframe you are coming for, what your canyon plans/desires are, if you are looking for a ride or are willing to drive, if you have a stove you are willing to share, and most importantly whether you are experienced enough (and willing) to lead some canyons. Would be good to have some different options available...


Thanks for organizing this Noob trip. I'd love to go but allready have a hut reserved up Smuggler mountain outside of Aspen. I'll be doing my last snowshoe trip of the season. It's my farewell to the Winter and HELLO to Spring. Besides, you've got one beefy schedule there and I'm afraid I'd not be able to keep up!! Usually two canyons a weekend are it for me. I'm delicate like that. HAHA!!! Have a blast and can't wait to see photos!

[mtnmax]

I am going to be in that general area of Utah that whole week. Starting out in Capital Reef doing some non-technical canyons with my parents and was looking at doing some technical canyons later in the week. I may look at adjusting my plans to come down to the North Wash area. I was through the east fork of Leprechaun Canyon last year and I am intrested in some of the canyons in Posion spring area.

I have a 200' 9mm static rope and other assosicated technical gear I am somewhat new to canyoneering but have experince in caving, both horizontial and vertical, and rock climbing. I feel confident leading trips in some of the easier canyons.

[Iceaxe]

AJ, I split your trip off into it's own thread so it would be easier to organize.

Thanks for stepping up :2thumbs:

[ratagonia]

AJ wrote:
ratagonia wrote: I like heavy cotton clothing for this time of year in northwash. Jeans work great, and I have some heavy cotton sweatshirts I use. Any cotton pants worn are likely to last at most ONE day. The sweatshirts seem to last longer, especially if reversed.

Since I never carry prusiks, I guess I can't come :cry:

Always bring a drybag. Fold it up neatly and hide it in the pack so it does not get scraped up.

Tom

Tom,

I'm sure you know the drawbacks of cotton; losing majority of insulating value when wet. Sure, if someone is just doing the Irish bunch, and they don't have water; cotton can work. Someone with your experience, I wouldn't worry too much about. However, I would be careful what you are posting to the general populace. Especially a post about NoobFest. I've gone into supposedly dry canyons and had a swim before - as I'm sure you have. Those situations could turn quite bad if you aren't adequately prepared. Only my opinion, I could be wrong.

In general, I'd recommend against cotton, unless you know for certain the canyons you are doing will be dry and/or the weather will be warm enough to warrant wearing cotton. (Niether of these are known at this time.)

Without prussiks, you can still come; just not on my trip. ;) Hope you can make it and will run a separate trip for a different set of canyons to your liking. Or join on my trip; whichever you prefer. I think I can let it slide that you don't have prussiks. One set per group will usually suffice. I think it's a good idea for those getting into the sport to have them though. I was planning on showing how to tie them and some of the uses for those that aren't already familiar...

As for the drybag; I don't ALWAYS carry one. Why would you carry one in Chambers or Sandthrax for instance? I put that if you have one, make sure it's protected. The important point is that many beginners might not have a drybag; and likely the canyons they are going in won't require one. So, don't worry if you don't have one. If you do have one, great, but make sure it's protected as the North Wash canyons are harsh for those who aren't familiar. Like Tom mentioned, make sure it fits inside your backpack...

Take care,
A.J.

I'm tempted to say, "The Emperor has spoken. Quake ye who disregard the wisdom of He-Who-Canyons-A-Whole-Lot". But the noobs might see an inappropriate arrogance in that, so I guess I won't.

North Wash Canyons don't hold water. Exceptions are the The West Butlers (Shenanigans, Monkey Business, and Foolin' Around). Also-in-the-area canyons like Maidenwater and Trail tend to hold water. The Poison Springs canyons tend to have mud if wet, but not a whole lot of 'swimming', more just kinda messy. Of course, some of this is based on the beautiful dry weather we have been having down here, which is presumed to carry through to the time of this trip. Heck, it might be raining torrentially while you do these canyons for all I know.

The problem in North Wash usually is in staying cool, not staying warm. And it tears up clothing. So I don't bring even moderately expensive non-cotton clothing on these trips, I bring my worn out Old Navy Chinos and chew up one pair of pants a day, and my heavy cotton Ebay sweat shirts which don't seem to wear out. I may wear a capilene shirt on the approach, and a polyester fleece to change into in case I get cold, but usually change into the 'armor outfit' when we enter the canyon.

I don't carry prusiks and consider them almost an indicator of cluelessness, though some people I respect carry them. I always have something that I can climb the rope with at hand, so carrying seperate supplies to do some seems silly. Instead I carry multi-useful over-the-shoulder nylon slings and carabiners; and as leader, I usually carry a pair of tiblocs also. The possibility of anyone other than the leader having to climb the rope is remote - the possibility of the leader having to climb the rope is remote. Why make people go buy a piece of equipment they don't know how to use and won't need? If they know how to use prusiks, tiblocs and/or bachman's, they can already make an intelligent decision about whether they should bring them or not.

Non-locking biners??? :ne_nau: CRAZY!!!!

I guess I don't ALWAYS carry I dry bag. Heck I don't have one right now! Modern drybags (POE) fold up neatly and hide in the back of your pack easily, and can save your butt (well, at least, keep your warm clothes dry) when coming upon the unexpected mandatory swim. YMMV

Emp

[AJ]

ratagonia wrote:
I'm tempted to say, "The Emperor has spoken. Quake ye who disregard the wisdom of He-Who-Canyons-A-Whole-Lot". But the noobs might see an inappropriate arrogance in that, so I guess I won't.

Might not just be the noobs... Thanks for your strength and willpower of restraint. :roll:

ratagonia wrote:
North Wash Canyons don't hold water. Exceptions are the The West Butlers (Shenanigans, Monkey Business, and Foolin' Around).


Which were on my list...

ratagonia wrote: Also-in-the-area canyons like Maidenwater and Trail tend to hold water. The Poison Springs canyons tend to have mud if wet, but not a whole lot of 'swimming', more just kinda messy.

I've run into chest deep water in two of them. That's close enough, and definitely ample wet to cause an issue if it's not warm enough.

ratagonia wrote: Of course, some of this is based on the beautiful dry weather we have been having down here, which is presumed to carry through to the time of this trip. Heck, it might be raining torrentially while you do these canyons for all I know.

Exactly.

ratagonia wrote: The problem in North Wash usually is in staying cool, not staying warm. And it tears up clothing. So I don't bring even moderately expensive non-cotton clothing on these trips, I bring my worn out Old Navy Chinos and chew up one pair of pants a day, and my heavy cotton Ebay sweat shirts which don't seem to wear out. I may wear a capilene shirt on the approach, and a polyester fleece to change into in case I get cold, but usually change into the 'armor outfit' when we enter the canyon.

Depending on the time of the year; the weather is variable. In 2007, we were in the Roost in mid-march. The average temps were in the low 80's. We were originally planning against hypothermia, when in actuality it was dehydration that was more of a factor on that trip. Then, over a month later in April, we were in the 40's; and it was bitter cold in the North Wash area. That continued on. If you remember, it was only in the 40's when we met you at the Swell in early May.

That's why I put the weather links in there, and still advise against cotton.

As for the clothes, I never suggested going out and buying new under armor or such. I recommended going to Savers, Salvation army, etc. Nowadays, you can get synthetics for less than $5. I usually pay around $3 for my over-armor clothes. Heck, you can get new synthetic clothing at Walmart for $6. Like we both mentioned, North Wash is harsh; it will tear up clothing. Don't bring anything you don't mind getting shredded.

ratagonia wrote: I don't carry prusiks and consider them almost an indicator of cluelessness, though some people I respect carry them. I always have something that I can climb the rope with at hand, so carrying seperate supplies to do some seems silly.

This thread is digressing quite rapidly. Tiblocks work fine for single lines, but if you are doing multiple lines, or if you want to attach for a meat anchor, or if you want to setup a pulley system, etc. Prussiks work better. As well, tiblocs can tear into a ropes sheath pretty quickly, and at my usual 8mm rope diameter; there isn't a whole lot of meat there as well as the tiblocs tend to slip a little more...

You can also use the cord for prussiks to extend a handle for the backpack in case they forgot that part. You can also use it to clip into an anchor. Most importantly, prussiks cost less than $5 total, where tiblocs are $20/each. Someone who is going to be a recreational canyoneer can benefit greatly from knowing what a prussik is and some of it's uses.

ratagonia wrote: Instead I carry multi-useful over-the-shoulder nylon slings and carabiners; and as leader, I usually carry a pair of tiblocs also. The possibility of anyone other than the leader having to climb the rope is remote - the possibility of the leader having to climb the rope is remote. Why make people go buy a piece of equipment they don't know how to use and won't need?

Umm, because as I mentioned, I was planning on giving some pointers?

ratagonia wrote: If they know how to use prusiks, tiblocs and/or bachman's, they can already make an intelligent decision about whether they should bring them or not.


I agree. If you look at my list, the only things I have as mandatory are the two locking biners and a helmet. Obviously people will need a harness and belay device. I make recommendations on other stuff, but if any of it isn't what you normally bring; and you can reasonably discuss why you don't want to carry them; I'm fine with that. Again, this thread was called NOOBFEST. This usually (to me) doesn't mean everyone is going to be experienced...

My list is more for those who don't have the experience to know what to bring. No offense, but it took a bit of time to put together; time I really don't have right now. If you want to debate it, I'd prefer you just give me a call. I'm more than willing to discuss. However, I don't think this thread is the appropriate place for this conversation.

ratagonia wrote:
Non-locking biners??? :ne_nau: CRAZY!!!!


Dude, if you are having an issue with my list - step up to the plate and make your own. Run the trip. I'm just trying to help, and trying to give suggestions. You are experienced. You dialed in your system. I can respect that. Some of the stuff on the list, I may or may not carry as well, depending on conditions. However, just because someone doesn't carry what you carry doesn't make it wrong.

This point is moot however, as I never specified non-locking biners. I said two LARGE locking carabiners were mandatory. Any more were optional; and I just used the vague term "normal". I was considering normal sized; and didn't really care if it was locking or not.

That being said, I usually carry one or sometime two non-lockers, and have left them in a canyon or on a climb when the situation warrants. Rare, but it happens. I also prefer them for attaching some stuff to my harness; my prussiks for instance. They don't bind up as much when I'm taking them off.

ratagonia wrote:
I guess I don't ALWAYS carry I dry bag. Heck I don't have one right now! Modern drybags (POE) fold up neatly and hide in the back of your pack easily, and can save your butt (well, at least, keep your warm clothes dry) when coming upon the unexpected mandatory swim. YMMV

Emp

:deadhorse:

I agree. There are times and places for it. We're beating a dead horse already. If you have a dry bag, and plan on bringing it, just make sure it's protected. Hopefully, other trips step up and there are canyon options where people definitely won't need them.

Take care,
A.J.

[AJ]

Thanks for the new thread ice.

abirken, sorry you can't join us, but hope you have a great time on your hut trip!

mtnmax, if you have done caving and feel comfortable; I'm sure you will be fine. At the very least, I can give you a bunch of info and might be able to even get you to the head of the canyon like I mentioned in the trip. When we are there, if you have any questions, let me know and I'll help out as much as I can. Looking forward to seeing you there!

Dan and Shane, don't instigate. I'm sure you guys (as well as Tom) know that Tom knows his stuff. I definitely have a lot of respect for him. However, I don't know the experience level of people on this forum overall, as I have only met a few people that post here. Thus, I need to assume some folks will be new to canyoneering. I'm taking the safe approach.

I'm sorry to see that post Tanya. I hope my replies don't come off that way. I'm not saying Tom's way is wrong; just that there is usually more than one way to do things. Seems more like having to defend my list...

Anyway, Tom and others, hope there are no hard feelings; and hope to see you out there!

Tom, still waiting to hear if you are joining us!

[ratagonia]

AJ wrote:
Anyway, Tom and others, hope there are no hard feelings; and hope to see you out there!

Tom, still waiting to hear if you are joining us!

Unfortunately, I am priorly committed for that weekend.

I think you will find, AJ, that somewhat contentious arm-wrestling is considered part of the game. Welcome to UUtah... uh, Bogley.

Tom (if I still had hair... )==> :rockon:

[ratagonia]

AJ wrote:
ratagonia wrote:
Non-locking biners??? :ne_nau: CRAZY!!!!


Dude, if you are having an issue with my list - step up to the plate and make your own.

Bring whatever you want - except non-locking biners. Oh, and those spring-locking biners don't work either.

Tom