Clean air rally at the Capitol: Saturday Jan 25, 2014

[hank moon]

http://blog.utahmomsforcleanair.org/

Wondering if any Boggies are planning to be there?

71649

71650

[rockgremlin]

This is what happens when attention craving soccer moms get bored.

I mean really....just how much methane infused flatulence and carbon dioxide are these ladies emitting all of the time?

Hypocrites.

[dougr]

Will be sad to watch as Utah morphs from a state of relative freedom to following the model of the Pac coast states. 10 to 20 years I suppose.

[oldno7]

This is what happens when attention craving soccer moms get bored.

I mean really....just how much methane infused flatulence and carbon dioxide are these ladies emitting all of the time?

Hypocrites.

X2

[Scott P]

Salt Lake and the rest of the Wasatch Front air is so unhealthy in the winter (the main reason I wouldn't live there gain even though I like everything else). Why is it so bad that some moms are concerned for their children's health? Breathing all those toxins can't be that healthy for children.

As far as freedom goes, shouldn't people be free not to breath as much junk as well? How is forcing them to breath it fitting in the definition of freedom?

Utah is so concerned with making more alcohol laws, et al, but it seems that air quality is just as unhealthy than a drink now and then (PS, I don't drink alcohol). If there is hypocrisy, that's where it lies.

Every single person who lives there contributes to it, and maybe nothing can be practically done about the air quality, but if it can be done, why not do it? Voluntary no drive days, better public transport, etc. all seem good.

PS, why are the people complaining about these moms the ones not living in SLC?

Regardless of your opinions on the subject, why are these moms "bad" for wishing that there was cleaner air?

[DiscGo]

Why are the people complaining about these moms the ones not living in SLC?


I am in Salt Lake every week, and you don't live in our State. So I find it ironic that you would complain about people complaining about this who arent' affected by it when we are, and you aren't.



Regardless of your opinions on the subject, why are these moms "bad" for wishing that there was cleaner air?

Do you think we don't all want cleaner air? We do. But what we don't want is increased Government regulations, and burdens. We look at California and we don't want that to be our future.

[Scott P]

..

[Scott P]

I am in Salt Lake every week, and you don't live in our State. So I find it ironic that you would complain about people complaining about this who arent' affected by it when we are, and you aren't.

I grew up in SLC and lived there most of my life. I was was only complaining about the people making fun of the moms. My solution for getting out of the pollution was simply to move. Not everyone is able or wants to do this though.


Do you think we don't all want cleaner air? We do. But what we don't want is increased Government regulations, and burdens.

OK, so if you are one of these moms who want cleaner air for their kids, what do you propose they do? Propose a solution that would help clean up the air without any regulations. This would be more effective than simply implying that the moms are bad because they are concerned about their kids breathing toxins.

When I lived in Salt Lake City, my longest held job was at the Johnson Matthey Gold Refinery. That place was always having toxic leaks et al. In fact my old bosses got prosecuted for conspiracy for intentionally releasing toxins into the water supply and then covering it up:

http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/2006/March/06_enrd_166.html

Another time we almost blew up several people outside our building (general public, not employees). I was blown up pretty bad (25% of my body) in yet another separate hydrogen explosion. While I was in the hospital, another employee got blown up doing the same thing. I regret not suing (I wanted the job reference and had worked there for several years).

There are a lot of companies in Utah that get away with some wacky stuff.

Do you think that no regulations at all are needed? If the answer is less regulations are needed, what is your solution for cleaner air? Other than making fun of the moms who are concerned, that is.

[oldno7]

Well said, Disco
I was born in SLC, grew up on the Wasatch front, left after graduating high school.
The hypocrisies are endless, Ill start with one.

Lets start with the group, Utah MOMS for clean air:
How many of these MOMS have large families?
I don't advocate against anyone's right to do so but the more children that are born and living in the Salt Lake valley--the more pollution!
How many of these MOMS will drive themselves in there expedition to the Trax station and get on a train, because they all know that trax use eliminates pollution, having no clue that the system uses POWER generated from a coal fired power plant!
How many MOMS after the rally will go shopping at the mall, driving their suv, or any vehicle. Can't be any pollution created from a mall--that's silly.
How many MOMS will go home after the rally, after going shopping at the mall, after driving their car from one end of the valley to the other,to a warm, heated, well lighted house and take a hot bath and maybe even not think to use candles in the bathroom instead of lights--oh wait, are candles contributors to pollution?


The hypocrisy is to deep, sorry to rain on your dog and unicorn show--carry on....

[Scott P]

Oldno7, all those points have truth to them and I agree that every single person who lives there and has kids contributes to the problem, but what is the solution? Do nothing and suck it up? Try to do something?

Everyone says they want the air to be cleaner there, but it seems that no one wants to do anything about it or has a solution for it.

[oldno7]

OK, so if you are one of these moms who want cleaner air for their kids, what do you propose they do? Propose a solution that would help clean up the air without any regulations.

Wait--hold my beer, I got this.....

They could all drive their vehicles out to skull valley, or???
Then do a mass suicide--there bones would be picked clean by scavengers and in time their vehicles would return to the earth.
Now there would be no environmental hypocrisy attached to such a deed.
They would rid the Salt Lake valley of tens of thousands of current and future polluters.
Certainly the reduction on valley pollution would be measurable over time.
And as a added bonus--wildlife would benefit...
You asked..............

Honestly--I would love to see statistics comparing pollution added, by men vs. women.

Ooops--gotta run, I have to go write letters to congressman to remove hydro-electric dams and eradicate nuclear power plants....:lol8:

[oldno7]

On a not really, but kinda related note---

An old cowboy living down here in Southern Utah has a bumper sticker, the cops have asked him to remove it and he has refused.

From a distance you can easily read -- D.A.M.M.

Upon closer inspection and in a finer print, it states--drunks against mad mothers....

Seems Moms and Mothers have a lot of agendas.

[hank moon]

We need stronger regulations to help keep the air clean, as well as for water, food, etc.

The question is always where to draw the line.

Thank God for these moms and other concerned individuals who are actively trying to engage with their government to re-define the existing line and improve the quality (and perhaps quantity) of life for everyone.

Wish I could be there right now!

hank

[oldno7]

We need stronger regulations to help keep the air clean, as well as for water, food, etc.

The question is always where to draw the line.

Thank God for these moms

Wish I could be there right now!

hank

Didn't know you were a God fearing man....

Apparently this cause isn't important to you, you can talk the talk--but you can't walk with mom's for clean air....:mrgreen:

I wish all the Easterners weren't suffering from severe bouts of global warming...

But--it's only a hollow wish, as is yours.

[oldno7]

I WISH the Salt Lake VALLEY wasn't a valley, surrounded by mountains, pre disposing it to inversions from the beginning of time(when God created it)
Since Hank is a believer.

Oh--wait, wouldn't that make Salt Lake something like Kansas City?

[hank moon]

OldNo, I'm in Oakland, CA right now, but I will do a sympathy walk around town today - it's kinda smoggy here, too (though not as bad as SLC).

Thought of you the other day when I heard this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-25712766

Are there foreign agents in Lynchburg at this very moment? :)

hank

[accadacca]

I took this on the Draper bench a couple days ago.

https://fbcdn-photos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/63496_581297751944945_1083905004_n.jpg?dl=1

[oldno7]

OldNo, I'm in Oakland, CA right now, but I will do a sympathy walk around town today - it's kinda smoggy here, too (though not as bad as SLC).

Thought of you the other day when I heard this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-25712766

Are there foreign agents in Lynchburg at this very moment? :)

hank

Well of course I like apple pie---

Wait--I see what you did there.

You changed the subject didn't you, silly human....:haha:

[reverse_dyno]

Air pollution is considered a negative externality. Most economists believe that negative externalities can only be corrected through government regulation. If you do not understand what I am talking about, then look it up, or take an econ 101 class.

That rally was fun and a few thousand people showed up.

[oldno7]

Air pollution is considered a negative externality. Most economists believe that negative externalities can only be corrected through government regulation. If you do not understand what I am talking about, then look it up, or take an econ 101 class.

That rally was fun and a few thousand people showed up.

Did you walk to the rally from your home?

Or did you, in some way contribute to the problem you were protesting?

[DiscGo]

I grew up in SLC and lived there most of my life. I was was only complaining about the people making fun of the moms. My solution for getting out of the pollution was simply to move. Not everyone is able or wants to do this though.


I grew up in California and moved to Utah. Once I became a Utahan, I forfeited my right to have a voice about California politics. You stated "the people complaining about these moms are not the ones living in SLC". You'll notice that these people are not staging a protest at City Hall but at the Capital. The Capital is where you go to bring about change at a State level. I may not live in Salt Lake but I am a Utah Business owner and I do nearly half of my business in Salt Lake. New regulations that tax individuals or businesses for environmental impact would have a huge impact on me, which is why I do feel like I am entitled.

So based on your statement about us not being the ones who live in Salt Lake, you can see how I would be highly more affected by this than you would be having grown up there and now living 500 miles away in a different State.

My brother & Sister-in-law attended the protest. My Sister-in-law is a Democrat and my brother is an Indepdenant moderate. Both of them are highly in favor of increased taxation on polluters but they felt like that rally was awful. They said that the portion they attended had people shouting about wanting to get these refineries (and other polluting companies) out of Utah. The answer is not doing away with jobs, and chasing away tax paying businesses and employees.
What do I propose? I propose incentivizing companies to develop clean energies, and encouraging the public to use the mass transit. UTA recently raised their rates "to offset the cost of increased gasoline pricing". In the last couple of years the U.S. has seen some great strides in Solar energy, but we could be doing a lot more with clean energies in general.

Call me a "conspiracy theorist" I believe that the means to use clean energy already exists but that the challenge is how the Government would tax that energy. Our Nation, States, Cities, etc. would struggle financially without the income they receive from taxing energy.

Either way though, I am not saying that I have all the answers. But I don't like using children as weapons (if you don't increase taxation you hate the children, we have to tax polluters if you love children, etc.) and I think it is pretty smug to complain about people complaining about this "because they don't live in Salt Lake" but it does affect them/us and it does not affect you.

[Sombeech]

My brother & Sister-in-law attended the protest. My Sister-in-law is a Democrat and my brother is an Indepdenant moderate. Both of them are highly in favor of increased taxation on polluters but they felt like that rally was awful. They said that the portion they attended had people shouting about wanting to get these refineries (and other polluting companies) out of Utah. The answer is not doing away with jobs, and chasing away tax paying businesses and employees.

Exactly. There is such thing as irresponsible protesting. Wanting to "get rid" or move the refineries to other areas, without putting a second of thought into what the consequences would be.

Price increase on service/goods
Uprooted families
Unemployment
Failure to clean the air from shutting down a refinery
Higher taxes to fund a system that accomplished nothing

There are better alternatives to solving pollution than making people lose their jobs if they don't relocate their whole family. They don't want illegal immigrants to have their family uprooted, but they're perfectly fine to suggest refinery families do it.

Capitalism can be the solution once again, if people would let Government ease up on the reigns a bit.

If there's money to be made in creating/selling a system to clean the air, it's a win/win. Why is it such a bad idea to make money while providing a solution? Why do people prefer a bloated government to try and fail at doing this?

[oldno7]

Natural Gas is the answer.

Very clean burning.

The US, does not need to import it and we have an abundant supply.

Vehicles can burn natural gas.

Power plants can burn natural gas.

Demand will clearly drive up cost, but is cost a factor at this point?

Currently natural gas is 1/3-1/2 the cost of gasoline, demand might bring it to equalization.

AND--if we want to extend our natural gas reserves further, we could generate power with nuclear.

[DiscGo]

Natural Gas is the answer.

I think that goes double for our mass transit buses.

[oldno7]

But it puts the environmental protesters in quite a conundrum...............

Do we protest for clean air?

Or--do we protest more drilling?

decisions--decisions....

Or they can continue to protest both and get the results they currently have!!

I was in Bountiful all day Friday, I'd love to see cleaner air.

I would also love to see an increase in cleaner burning CNG.

hmm--I wonder which method is workable and sustainable?

[Scott P]

So based on your statement about us not being the ones who live in Salt Lake, you can see how I would be highly more affected by this than you would be having grown up there and now living 500 miles away in a different State.

Actually, it's a lot less than 500 miles. I live due east of Vernal. I never claimed that it would affect me more than it would affect you and I wasn't one of the ones that was out there protesting. You have some valid points (also, I said Salt Lake, but the entire Wasatch Front has similar problems during inversions).

It's the way it was done. Rather than come up with some valid points as you did, some people just started attacking the moms. That is what I was talking about. Re-read the comments and see if they are useful.

Personally, I get tired of Bogley members (I'm not speaking of you disco) implying that so and so is stupid just because they have a different idea. Sometimes it sucks us in and makes us want to retaliate and I've been there too. Although I still like Bogley at times, in this regard Bogley is the worst of all the outdoor forums that I'm active with.


They said that the portion they attended had people shouting about wanting to get these refineries (and other polluting companies) out of Utah.

Most of the pollution you see in the inversions actually comes from vehicles rather than refineries.


What do I propose? I propose incentivizing companies to develop clean energies, and encouraging the public to use the mass transit.

Those are valid solutions and much better than attacking the moms. I wanted to hear what you thought. Also, if companies are worried about pollution, there are things they could do without any government intervention at all. One would be to favor a 4 day work week over a 5 day work week, if practical. This alone would cut car pollution from workplace commuting by 20%.

Companies can also provide incentives to use public transport or by commuting on foot or bike. The company I work for actually pays us for biking to work. It isn't much ($2 a day for biking and stretching), but after a year I get a pretty good gift certificate. It actually saves the company money too because the health insurance the company uses give them a 3% discount for providing such incentives. (One glitch to this though for places like the Wasatch Front is that on high pollution days, it can be harmful to exercise if you have some medical conditions.)

If people really want clean air, there are plenty of things people could do without government intervention. Suggesting things like this is better than simply attacking the moms.

Still, at least some regulations are needed. The air in places like SLC can be bad, but truth be known it's a lot better now than it was 50 or 60 years ago. I'm guessing that anyone who's ever been to a country that has lax environmental laws will see that some regulations are needed.

[DiscGo]

Rather than come up with some valid points as you did, some people just started attacking the moms.
The issue I have with it being about "Moms" is that I really do believe people can be manipulated "in the name of the children". And if it is for "Moms" then it is really about the children. As you said "Most of the pollution you see in the inversions actually comes from vehicles rather than refineries" but that won't stop people from passing laws to hurt the refineries (which I believe to be a critical part of our economy until we are off of fossil fuels all together).


Personally, I get tired of Bogley members implying that so and so is stupid just because they have a different idea. Me too, but I feel like Bogley is more reflective of our entire culture as a Nation. Even in the "Scientific Community" there is no tolerance for people with different ideas (despite uncertain data). We have become a society where those who speak out are usually treated ignorantly until they stop speaking out. Bogley certainly maintains a common core of Outdoorsy activities but discusses more "non-outdoorsy" and certainly more "political" issues than any other online Outdoor Community.



Companies can also provide incentives to use public transport or by commuting on foot or bike. The company I work for actually pays us for biking to work. It isn't much ($2 a day for biking and stretching), but after a year I get a pretty good gift certificate. It actually saves the company money too because the health insurance the company uses give them a 3% discount for providing such incentives. (One glitch to this though for places like the Wasatch Front is that on high pollution days, it can be harmful to exercise if you have some medical conditions.)


I love ideas like this. I feel like State Government (and even City) can offer incentives to companies like this to attract more of them to their communities. I love Utah, and I love the Outdoors. I want to see our Government work with business (and individuals) to promote environmental conservation, but I am against simply taxing and/or fining people & companies to make a show of loving the environment.




If people really want clean air, there are plenty of things people could do without government intervention. Suggesting things like this is better than simply attacking the moms.

Again, for me the Mom thing is about trying to pull at the heart strings of the people, to pass horrible legislation. I am an active member of the PTA, and I try to be an active member of my community. But I am very sensitive to doing things in the name of "the children" because too often making it about the kids is simply a tool to pass things that are not for the benefit of our community (nor the children directly).




Still, at least some regulations are needed. The air in places like SLC can be bad, but truth be known it's a lot better now than it was 50 or 60 years ago. I'm guessing that anyone who's ever been to a country that has lax environmental laws will see that some regulations are needed.

Regulations are important but I think you should come at it from both sides. From my perspective there should be HUGE (insurmountable) fines in place against a company who would spill toxic waste (and other severely damaging effects on the environment) but mostly offer positive incentives for carpooling, bike riding, renewable energy, etc.. When you force people to do the right thing, people will resent it. When you incentivize and reward people for doing the right thing, people will love it.

[stefan]

Natural Gas is the answer.



hydrogen is now beginning its commercial viability and can significantly cut emissions if produced right.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/capitalbusiness/hydrogen-cars-met-with-mix-of-excitement-and-skepticism-in-washington/2014/01/26/5b4b3e28-842a-11e3-9dd4-e7278db80d86_story.html?tid=HP_more

[Scott Card]

In honor of pollution, moms, and Utah, I rode a snowmobile to the top of a mountain and looked at mile after mile of clean air. What a great protest I had. The only negative is that my coat smells a bit from the exhaust of the snow machine because I got stuck and had to dig it out while the engine was running.....

[jman]

Definitely there is smugness on the board. Feel free to PM me to get a sample of what I get when members don't get along ;)

That's probably true - there is more character, animation, and emotion, and passion here than the other outdoor forums I frequent as well. But, the one thing you can always count on - a reply/answer. And quick too.

Do 99% of people want cleaner air? Yes. The ones who don't, still want it but that's be cause they are protecting their company and revenue.

Are inversions natural and a part of Utah's climate? Yes. But, people don't want extra pollution on those days. And that's where the hypocrisy comes from.

I agree with the above sentiments that us Utahns create the most pollution, and that we SHOULD hold ourselves more accountable.

Punishing factories and refineries might help a little, but that's not going to stop people from not carpooling, from not taking multiple-trips in a day, from not taking mass-transit, etc.

I agree with Discgo, as more incentives need to be out there. My company use to offer it but but took it away due to budget cuts. I took it for 4 months before that stopped. Instead of refueling my truck once a week, it was down to refueling every 3 weeks!! Plus, I saved nearly $300+ every month just in fuel costs alone, since my company bought all of us free monthly passes. In-turn the company got tax incentives - win win!

This rally kind of reminds me of the water "crisis" as well, on a tangent. Sure, we might be having lower than water averages currently. But people are forgetting that we live in a DESERT??! The 2nd driest state. Do people think Utah is a jungle?! Little to no-water is the "normal" currently. Just like the "inversions".

I'm not saying that nothing can be done to mitigate problems, such as not giving our water (IE Snake Valley) to the driest state in the Union due to bad management (in my opinion). Just like we can help my not adding more pollution to our smog inversion.

But that's going to start at the individual level, and by education. All other fixes will be a bandaid and not a cure, until we can get the aforementioned going.

[Scott P]

Regulations are important but I think you should come at it from both sides.

I agree with you.

Also, regulations should have obtainable goals.

To be honest, if the power plant shuts down in the town I live in, this town is screwed. If done by free enterprise, fine, but if the town is shut down only because of an unattainable regulation (if this ever proves to be the case), I don't think that would be right (there is much fear about this).

In my own opinion, if a long established industry in a town is shut down solely due to a regulation, rather than free enterprise, there should be political and other pressure to keep the jobs (even if different jobs) in the town that was affected.

For example, if after all efforts are made, but turn out to be unobtainable, and regulations shut down the power plant, the power companies and government making the regulations should work hard with the community in order to assure as far as practical that the jobs for whatever energy (wind, solar, whatever) replaces that from the power plant stay within the town affected as much as possible.

At least that's my own opinion and what I have written lawmakers about.

[Sombeech]

In honor of pollution, moms, and Utah, I rode a snowmobile to the top of a mountain and looked at mile after mile of clean air. What a great protest I had. The only negative is that my coat smells a bit from the exhaust of the snow machine because I got stuck and had to dig it out while the engine was running.....

:haha:

[Sombeech]

On a side note, directed to anybody who thinks people should pay a fine for letting their car idle, they are already paying that fine.

It's called ridiculously high gas prices. Nobody wants to burn unnecessary fuel, but sometimes that's how it goes.

[DesertDuke]

I think you SLC folks should just come up here and get some of our perty windmills, set them up there in your valley, power them with some coal-fired electricity from a plant somewhere else, turn them on set in the "blow" mode, and blow that crap over to Wendover.

There, problem solved. Just be sure to remember the part about taking them from here.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_JRfStBrTjsQ/TI0oGzKgBnI/AAAAAAAAASY/nA-q-NRpdPQ/s1600/P9110161.JPG

[oldno7]

hydrogen is now beginning its commercial viability and can significantly cut emissions if produced right.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/capitalbusiness/hydrogen-cars-met-with-mix-of-excitement-and-skepticism-in-washington/2014/01/26/5b4b3e28-842a-11e3-9dd4-e7278db80d86_story.html?tid=HP_more

Very interesting and potentially viable solution.

The article states a need for costly infrastructure, if this is done privately, I'm all for it.

Good read, stefan

[hank moon]

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/opinion/57357428-82/bring-california-jobs-party.html.csp

Letters: Air pollution discouraging tourism, business
[COLOR=#333333][FONT=Arial]
First Published Jan 07 2014 01:01 am

[hank moon]

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/opinion/57396638-82/daq-board-polluters-quality.html.csp

Letter: Utah air quality board represents polluters
[COLOR=#333333][FONT=Arial]
First Published Jan 18 2014 01:01 am

[hank moon]

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/opinion/57438694-82/eden-smog-drive-free.html.csp

Letter: Smog is taking our quality of life
[COLOR=#333333][FONT=Arial]
First Published Jan 25 2014 01:01 am

[rockgremlin]

I'm hearing a lot of whining and complaining, but no solutions. Instead of pointing fingers at the lawmakers, what do honestly think is the solution? If you were appointed a lawmaker tomorrow, what would you do to solve the problem?


Talk is cheap.

[hank moon]

I'm hearing a lot of whining and complaining, but no solutions. Instead of pointing fingers at the lawmakers, what do honestly think is the solution? If you were appointed a lawmaker tomorrow, what would you do to solve the problem?


Talk is cheap.

The first steps toward solution begin with ordinary citizens getting interested, informed, aware, and involved in the process. Beyond that, no point in getting too detailed. The whining is a necessary part of the first steps. Like all social problems, the roots of this one go very, deep...to the heart of the idea of a participatory government.

[rockgremlin]

^^^ I didn't catch your solution. You are a lawmaker, the air in SL valley is badly polluted...what do you propose to solve the problem?

[hank moon]

^^^ I didn't catch your solution. You are a lawmaker, the air in SL valley is badly polluted...what do you propose to solve the problem?

A solution will involve the following elements:

- ongoing citizen engagement and oversight
- a cleaner, more accountable DAQ (and gov't in general)
- stronger efforts to reduce emissions (possibly new technology)
- enforcement of existing regulations (that are not currently enforced)
- changes to existing regulations as needed

As always, the devil is in the details, and the first point (citizen engagement) is absolutely crucial. A common human response to the need for change is to do nothing, as we have a special talent for creating ideologies and rationalizations that we use to avoid the pain of change. One reason why folks are afraid of new regulation is that they know that big government requires big responsibility and they do not want to accept that responsibility.

People are so occupied with getting ahead / staying afloat and remaining entertained that there seems to be no time or energy for real involvement in government. The siren song of "small government" is powerful, and I feel it. But...a large part of feeling the weight of "big government" is the sense of powerlessness due to lack of involvement. Get engaged, and big government won't seem so big any more. As when facing any big challenge, like a difficult climb, canyon or mtn. bike trail: once you get on it, get moving, the size and weight begin to shrink.

[Sombeech]

Rather than depending on every citizen to eventually have the correct frame of mind;

Rather than demanding Government to force us to think or act a certain way;

Capitalism can be more successful. Reward the solutions with actual dollars, keep Government at a distance. Watch the scramble as corporations, individuals, enterprises race to clean the air with their solutions.

[hank moon]

Capitalism can be more successful. Reward the solutions with actual dollars, keep Government at a distance. Watch the scramble as corporations, individuals, enterprises race to clean the air with their solutions.

Human health is incentive enough for the interested human population (i.e. activists). The corporate population is another matter. How to incentivize that? Capitalism is not a force of nature. How it operates is largely defined by government regulation, and current regulations incentivize bad air. As long as that remains true, a pure-capitalist solution seems unlikely. A powerful mechanism for change exists right now: citizen-driven government.

It's less alienating when you're part of it!

[Sombeech]

Human health is incentive enough for the interested human population (i.e. activists).

But this is the problem, only a minority of people are motivated for health reasons, whether its right or wrong.

Its a long hard road to convince people to think a certain way. Let money do the talking, we may think it's shallow, selfish, done for the wrong reasons....but when the air is cleaner because of capitalism, who cares.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk

[hank moon]

But this is the problem, only a minority of people are motivated for health reasons, whether its right or wrong.

Its a long hard road to convince people to think a certain way. Let money do the talking, we may think it's shallow, selfish, done for the wrong reasons....but when the air is cleaner because of capitalism, who cares.

I agree that money can talk, but where's the money coming from? What's your thinking in terms of how this can happen? A rich person offers a mega-millions prize for the best clean air solution? Whiz kid invents new technology?

How to overcome entrenched interest? Whatever it is, a pure capitalist solution must appeal to the masses enough to induce a sea change - like cell phones. The appeal to the public must be so great that corporate interest shifts from the status quo to the new, healthier way of doing business. No more illegal midnight burn offs. Reduced energy consumption, toxic emissions, etc.

What sort of product or service could do all that? Tell me your dreams, man!

And...just for kicks:

"Its a long hard road to develop a product or service that actually changes the world. Let regulations do the job they are supposed to do. We may think it's overbearing, unfair, done for the wrong reasons....but when the air is cleaner because of good government, who cares?

[Sombeech]

I agree that money can talk, but where's the money coming from? What's your thinking in terms of how this can happen? A rich person offers a mega-millions prize for the best clean air solution? Whiz kid invents new technology?

Capitalism reaps the rewards of people buying a product or service, not necessarily rewards from government or a multi millionaire.

A vendor can start by targeting the health minded, environmentalists, activists, or whatever category we'd like to bottle them in. Some products could take years to produce, like the hydrogen powered car. Others could take less like the alternatives to wood burning stoves.

There are many products or services available today, but perhaps not enticing enough to the consumer. Take carpooling services, the Front Runner train, bicycle lanes..... There is some reason more people do not use these, and it boils down to convenience. Find out what the main opposition is, offer a service or product that overcomes this inconvenience, and make money.

A range of products from individual use to possibly some huge industrialized smog filters. Competition in these demographics will only continue to drive improvement on the product, and reduction in price.

The best part is, it's the people that made the choice, not the Government.